the Kampilan exclusively Moro?

[David]

Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa

Like the kris, it was coated with poison before going into battle, and the fiction that the weapon itself has been rendered poisonous by some alchemy no doubt enhanced its market value.

I have heard lore that poisons were used on blades, but have yet to see any qualified evidence of this. Anyone have more information or verification of this?

[VANDOO]

NOT KNOWING THE BASE LINE METAL WEAPONS ( FIRST ONES) TO COME TO THE PHILIPPINES WE HAVE TO USE CONJECTURE, LOGIC AND BEST GUESS TO PREDICT THEIR LIKELY EVOLUTION.
TO START WITH WE CAN ASSUME ALL THE TRIBES WOULD HAVE BEEN PAGANS ( A TERM USED BY ALL MAJOR RELIGIONS TO DESCRIBE THE BELIEFS OF TRIBAL PEOPLE OR ONES NOT OF THEIR RELIGION). HEADHUNTING WAS WIDELY PRACTICED BUT THE EXTERMINATION OR ENSLAVING OF ENTIRE TRIBES VERY UNCOMMON AT THAT TIME. MOST TRIBES WERE LIKELY RELATED AS MANY HAD SPLIT AND MOVED APART TO HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SURVIVE. COMPETITION FOR TERRITORY AS WELL AS PRESTIGE AMONG THESE GROUPS WOULD HAVE INCLUDED HEADHUNTING RAIDS.
THE DAYAKS AND NAGAS WERE BOTH HEADHUNTERS AND FAVORED A HEAVY BLUNT ENDED PARANG ( MANDAU OR NAG AX) THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO STILL FAVOR THIS FORM OF BLADE AND I SUSPECT THIS WAS THE FAVORED FORM THRU-OUT THE ISLANDS BEFORE THE MOROS OR SPAIN CAME. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN TRADE AND INFLUENCES FROM MALAY, BATAK, CHINESE AND PERHAPS OTHERS AS WELL. I ATTRIBUTE THE LONG SHARP POINTED WEAPONS TO BE PRIMARILY FROM SPANISH INFLUENCE AND THE BOWIE BLADE SHAPE PERHAPS FROM LATER AMERICAN INFLUENCES. THE KAMPILIAN PROBABLY WAS A LARGER VERSION OF THE EARLIER BLUNT ENDED PARANGS. THE MORO MAY HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DEVELOP THE KAMPILIAN OR IT COULD HAVE COME FROM ELSEWHERE AND BEEN ADOPTED BY THEM.?
WHO BROUGHT IN THE FIRST METAL BLADES FOR TRADE IS UNKNOWN. MOORS WHO STARTED THE MOROS FAVORED LARGER WEAPONS AND WERE MORE WARLIKE THAN THE PAGAN TRIBES AND NO DOUBT HAD MORE AND BETTER WEAPONS. INSTEAD OF JUST PROTECTING THEIR TERRITORY AND RAISING THEIR OWN CROPS THEY RAIDED FOR SLAVES. THE SLAVES DID ALL THE WORK LEAVING THE MEN FREE TO MAKE WAR AND HAVE MANY WIVES AND CHILDREN WHICH REQUIRED MORE SLAVES TO SERVE THEM. THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT MADE THE REPUTATION AS GREAT WARRIORS THAT THE MOROS DEVELOPED. THEY DEVELOPED LARGER WEAPONS BETTER SUITED FOR WAR AND PRACTICED AND TRAINED PRIMARILY TO BE WARRIORS. THE PAGAN TRIBES WENT ON THE OCCASIONAL HEADHUNTING RAID AND HAD OCCASIONAL BATTLES TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY BUT WERE NOT PROFESSIONAL WARRIORS. PAGAN TRIBES HUNTED, FARMED, AND MOSTLY DID THEIR OWN WORK NOT HAVING LARGE NUMBERS OF SLAVES .
THE MYSTIC STORIES OF THE KERIS OR PERHAPS SOME SLAVES TAKEN OR BOUGHT FROM THE REGIONS WHERE THE KERIS DAGGERS AND LEGENDS WERE, WAS LIKELY THE SOURCE OF THE CREATION OF THE MORO KRIS. THE MORO FAVORED A LARGE SWORD CAPABLE OF REMOVING HEADS AND LIMBS SO A LARGER MODIFIED VERSION INCORPORATING SOME OF THE MAGICAL FEATURES EVOLVED. THE KAMPILIAN IS A LARGER MORE FIERCE VERSION OF THE BLUNT ENDED SWORDS PERHAPS FROM THE EARLIER PAGAN TRIBES SUCH AS THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BUT A LIKELY SCENARIO. MY USE OF PAGAN AND ANY OTHER TERMS ARE NOT INTENDED TO LOOK DOWN ON OR DISRESPECT ANYONE.

[David]

Barry, i think perhaps animistic might be a better term for these tribes than pagan, though many would certainly consider Animism a form of Paganism.
I would also like to point out that the Moros were not started by the Moors, an ethnic group they really had no contact with. It was the colonial forces of the Spanish who coined the term Moro because these people were Muslims like the Moors that they knew.
It seems obvious that the kris/kalis developed from the keris, but this came to the Moro peoples along with the influx of Islam that flowed from Indonesian states where the keris was established so i don't think to has anything to do with some chance transference from a slave taken by a Moro tribe. I believe it developed into a larger slashing sword specifically to combat the Spanish. I am not convinced that we can categorize the Moro tribes (there are 13 different ethnic groups among them) as being intrinsically more war-like than the more animistic tribes of the region. They were involved for centuries fighting off Spanish colonial domination and when Spain lost the Philippines to the USA they continued their fight for an independent state against us. While they did indeed engage in piracy and raiding of Spanish and Christian held areas it must we remembered that they were at war with these force, not necessarily trying to extend their territories as much as free them from colonial control.

[kronckew]

don't forget not all the 'moro' tribes supported the insurrection against the USA, a good proportion didn't and fought with the USA against the others.

tribal animosities taking precedence over religion and politics. pershing essentially defeated the moro insurrectionists by being more brutal and more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

I'm sure an argument could probably be made both ways on this.
And yes, different Moro tribes had very unique identities and cultures and were often not a united front.

[Rick]

Pershing was humane compared to Wood; but we digress .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

I'm sure an argument could probably be made both ways on this.
And yes, different Moro tribes had very unique identities and cultures and were often not a united front.

This is an intriguing discussion!
It seems reasonable to note that in any culture or civilization there will be deviations, ideals, religious and traditional variations etc. so assuming that any tribal group or ethnicity were entirely 'standardized' would be profoundly incorrect.

Question on 'animism', would this not be considered a 'classification' of a following of a form of faith rather than a structured religion?
It seems that Paganism was more structured, and often used animist oriented practices and beliefs. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the two terms so clarification would be appreciated.

It is great to see discussion looking into the origins of the kampilan. Like many ethnographic forms, it is often unclear whether the form itself existed deeper in antiquity, or was its name simply a term used for a type of weapon not necessarily of the same exact form?

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an intriguing discussion!
It seems reasonable to note that in any culture or civilization there will be deviations, ideals, religious and traditional variations etc. so assuming that any tribal group or ethnicity were entirely 'standardized' would be profoundly incorrect.

Well, probably the main thing that all Moros share in common as a standard is the religion of Islam. I honestly can't be sure, but i image that this religious belief as practiced by the various Moro tribes is fairly similar. However, the Moros are not a tribe per se, but rather they are are group of many tribes with varying languages (Manguindanaon, Tausug, Maranao mostly, though there is also Sama-Bajau languages, Yakan and Kalangan) and traditions.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Question on 'animism', would this not be considered a 'classification' of a following of a form of faith rather than a structured religion?
It seems that Paganism was more structured, and often used animist oriented practices and beliefs. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the two terms so clarification would be appreciated.

Jim, religions can be considered "pagan", but there is no structured religion called Paganism. The term is often defines as below:
A religion that has many gods or goddesses, considers the earth holy, and does not have a central authority.
In my readings on the indigenous population of this area i am most often finding their beliefs describes as animistic. This is the indigenous belief system that existed amongst the peoples of these regions before the influx of outside religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Animism is often defined as follows:
The belief in the existence of individual spirits that inhabit natural objects and phenomena.

[VANDOO]

MY MISTAKE ISLAM PROBABLY CAME TO THE PHILIPPINES FROM MALAYSIA OR SOME OTHER PLACE WHERE THE KERIS WAS PRESENT. THE MOORS, AS YOU POINT OUT WERE THERE IN NAME ONLY WHICH ARRIVED WITH THE SPANISH. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SPECULATE WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE EVOLVED IN THE PHILIPPINES IF THE MOORS HAD COLONIZED THERE.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

I have heard lore that poisons were used on blades, but have yet to see any qualified evidence of this. Anyone have more information or verification of this?

I cannot add to this, but also find it most interesting. The lore of poison blades is known in medieval Europe and most certainly probably in many other cultures and times, but as noted, there seems to be no hard evidence of any such practice.
With poison arrows, obviously this is well confirmed, however with the potential of these failing to inflict any sort of grievous injury (unless direct hit on vital spot) the necessity of secondary threat seems well placed
With an edged weapon, especially a sword, such accent as poison seems redundant .

Is it possible that the presence of deadly elements such as arsenic, which I understand were often used in forging and etching of blades (in Borneo, Indonesia and Malaysia) might have become imbued in the lore of these weapons?

It seems in reality that these would lose or alter their properties in such processes as forging, but simply the knowledge of their presence might have led to such allusions.

I did read somewhere that some sort of 'paste' using various toxic venoms was used on blades, but again, this seems another form of psychological oriented myth.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I cannot add to this, but also find it most interesting. The lore of poison blades is known in medieval Europe and most certainly probably in many other cultures and times, but as noted, there seems to be no hard evidence of any such practice. ...
It seems in reality that these would lose or alter their properties in such processes as forging, but simply the knowledge of their presence might have led to such allusions.

I did read somewhere that some sort of 'paste' using various toxic venoms was used on blades, but again, this seems another form of psychological oriented myth.

i saw a video not all that long ago, on youtube i think, of a phillipino bladesmith forging a blade and rubbing it with crushed deadly spiders to make the blade more deadly. he said it infused the blade with spider venom, but i must assume the heat treatment afterwards would burn it all up.

edited: found it, HERE

as a side comment, even islam is not a homogeneous religion. as there are a number of sects like the sunni and shia that do not like each other very much. and others. islam does not have an overall religious leader like the catholics (the pope) and the buddhists (dalai lama). even the christian protestants have a pyramidal rank structure of bishops and arch bishops.

turkey, in the form of the ottoman empire used to provide some structure under it's sultan who was also the caliph and religious leader, but vast as it was, did not extend into lands outside the ottoman control. when it fell apart and the west imposed artificial boundaries without regard to local conditions, the seeds of the present conflicts in the region were sown, and we are forced to live with the resulting crops.

ah, well, enough politics. back to the present. at least the diversity provides us with a never ending source of differing sharp pointy things to collect.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Kronckew,
That is sort of what I had picked up in some of my reading as I followed this discussion and looked into the 'poison blade' phenomenon. It seems that this practice involved the preparation of some sort of paste using these venoms. As you note, the key properties of these substances would likely be lost chemically in the subsequent processes used in completing the work on the blades, but the perceptions become psychologically imbued.

Agreed on the notes pertaining to these religious structuring matters, which I mentioned only with respect to understanding the description of these dynamics as far as the diffusion of some weapon forms. It seems in the study of ethnographic material culture these factors often become quite important, and indeed these diversities make the study of these things most fascinating.

[Gustav]

Regarding Kampilan as a curved cutlass, just a coincidence more likely, considering the "artistic licence":

all of you surely know the picture of a Visayan Timawa or Tumao from the Boxer Codex (c.1590). Note the small signs on the blade, which remind a bit of chinese characters.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Regarding Kampilan as a curved cutlass, just a coincidence more likely, considering the "artistic licence":

all of you surely know the picture of a Visayan Timawa or Tumao from the Boxer Codex (c.1590). Note the small signs on the blade, which remind a bit of chinese characters.

Now that I think about it, I've never seen a visayan timawa with a large sword like that before. Possibly this may be the Visayan kampilan that I'm looking for, although seems a lot different from the moro kampilans that were imported to the visayas. If such a large sword existed, could it possible be indigenous to the islands or imported from another area, maybe India.

[kronckew]

i recall seeing a pair of swords very much like the above in an auction on ebay, i believe as south china / viet swords. they also look much like chinese pole arms, guan dao, rehilted as a sword.

[Nonoy Tan]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Regarding Kampilan as a curved cutlass, just a coincidence more likely, considering the "artistic licence":

all of you surely know the picture of a Visayan Timawa or Tumao from the Boxer Codex (c.1590). Note the small signs on the blade, which remind a bit of chinese characters.

Not Bisayans of the Philippines, but a Brunei warrior with his consort.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Not Bisayans of the Philippines, but a Brunei warrior with his consort.

Could be Bisaya in regards to the headband.
Its been widely accepted in even wiki's that the picture is considered "visayan timawa/tumao" although no proof to state whether this really is visayan or from Brunei.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

You can see that the people in the pictures posted where head bans look nearly identical (excluding the tagalog) when comparing the warrior with the large sword who sports the same type of head ban. Just my two scents as to why I assume many people proclaim that, that is a picture of a Timawa or possibly a Tumao.

[kai]

Hello Nonoy,

Not Bisayans of the Philippines, but a Brunei warrior with his consort.

Thanks, I should have checked the source first. On the following page there is another illustration of the same 2 people which is attributed to Brunei, indeed (also the placement in the opus is clearly with the Brunei section).

Have you possibly checked the available translations of this codex? I'm interested in how the efforts of Donoso et al. compare to Souza & Turley?

Regards,
Kai