Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The whole idea here is to learn from these weapons, which we are all doing together, so no such thing as an amateur....especially when one has the courage to step forward and make an entry regardless of status.
Thank you so much!

Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole.

On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf.
It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England).


I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810.
Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S.

It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68.

Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps?
While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples?

Salaams Jim, I stumbled upon this http://drbenjaminchurchjr.blogspot.c...3_archive.html which examines the Hounslow Factory(and a possible copy of a sword in the USA) and indicates that the H in the Fox is from that Foundry...thus perhaps not the Harvey designation. I have somewhere in a pile of notes a sword photo with the Harvey stamp in a block with HAR then VEY underneath.

Salaams Cathey ~ May this have a bearing on your #154 and #156. The single H being for Hounslow not Harvey?

Quote" A "Hounslow Mark" was placed on a sword manufactured in Great Britain by the Hounslow Sword Factory, established in 1629 when a number of German swordsmiths emigrated from the continent to England to begin work at a sword factory, located in Hounslow about 12 miles just to the west of London, that was established by an entrepreneur named Benjamin Stone. The different swordmakers put their individual marks on the blades they manufactured but some put their names on instead. Many blades were left unmarked. Not a great deal is known about the individual marks but the swords produced by the Hounslow factory were the best made in England, even if they did not quite match the quality of the swords made on the continent. The Hounslow factory made thousands of blades and swords".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

[Cathey]

Date: 1740-55
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 103.5 cm (40.7 inches)
Blade length: 87.4 cm (34.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.673 cm (1.4 inches)
Hilt widest point: 10.6 cm (4.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 9.5 cm (3.7 inches)
Marks, etc.: Mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf

Description
The hilt is constructed of fine iron cage work three quarter guard formed of a vertical and horizontal arrangement of narrow bars joined at the top by three scrolled bars, each with pierced diamond-shaped central panel, to a ring beneath the pommel. The spaces beneath the guard with three openwork hearts. There are a number of very old period repairs to some of the bars and one of the front bars has a crack toward the blade. The grip is leather warped with brass wire. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. The broadsword blade has three short central fullers and bears the mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf mark”.

General Remarks
Described by the Baron of Earlshall as “An English Cavalry sword, very probably for an Officer in the Household Cavalry and dating from 1740-55. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. However, it has an extremely good 17th century double edge blade mounted.”

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
Bonhams Knightsbridge Wednesday 26th November 2008 London lot 89 pp33.
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
WALLACE, John SCOTTISH SWORDS AND DIRKS plate 43


Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey, like you I was pretty excited with Ibrahiim's suggestion on the 'H' possibly representing Hounslow!
I also looked back into material on Hounslow, and found that this would not have corresponded with contemporary Hounslow practices in markings.
While for a time I thought that Hounslow did not use the 'wolf' or 'fox' markings, I found contrary evidence in that they did indeed use the familiar running wolf chiseled mark.

Since Hounslow had ceased by the 1660s, it does not seem that such practice would accede into the Harvey timeline, nor would the smiths of Hounslow have used the contrary figure of a noticeably tailed fox as used by the Harvey's. I have personally always felt that the fox used by the Harveys was perhaps a 'nod' to the Hounslow smiths in a rather commemorative sense, as the reputation certainly would remain known then.

Thank you so much, as always, for the wonderful examples you continue to post here, and for keeping this thread going!!

Fernando, excellent suggestion on the compellingly plausible interpretation of SOLIDEO GLORIA . Often the literal interpretation of words, terms and phrases can be rather difficult to understand properly in the mindset of our times, but such dimensional placement into the context and times of the weapon really makes a difference!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

Salaams Cathey, I think you are right...There is no defined link to join Hounslow with the running Fox or the H for that matter. There are swords from Shotley Bridge that carry both the Shotley Bridge wording and the Running Fox which is also not Chrystal clear since even Harvey Withers calls IT a Running Horse !

On analysis Hounslo or Hownsloe or Hownslow swords carried entirely different marks often based on the Me Fecit script and variations of it. I can find no proof of marks of Hounslow of any kind of Fox...

Clearly then SH and H were two marks inside the Running Fox outline of the Harveys and also Harvey and apparently a HAR and a VEY under...as a block inscription with no fox at all.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria...2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, It is a pleasure to take part albeit as a virtual observer in this masterclass originated by Cathey. Your input is an enormous inspiration to all Forum members especially those who enjoy, as I do, the potential for research ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex