Kris from Java, 1811 (c).

David · 27th August 2015, 04:50 PM

Thanks for flipping the keris Gustav. I agree that Sumatra is a likely origin for this hilt. I do feel that we are probably looking at a Javanese blade though which has me wondering about the marriage and who might have owned such a keris in Batavia in 1811.

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2015, 12:43 AM

The blade is certainly a Javanese style and form, however there was a political and cultural link between the Javanese courts and the courts of South Sumatra for a very long time. Keris made in Central Jawa were present in South Sumatra, and some keris made in South Sumatra copied Central Javanese style and form. South Sumatra also had links with North Coast Jawa. It is not at all surprising that a keris like this could turn up in Batavia in the early 19th century.

David · 28th August 2015, 07:07 AM

No, not surprising, just wish we had more to go on. Of course Gustav has described this as a Northern Sumatran form, but i would also not be surprise that influences went further than Palembang. It would be interesting to know what sheath this wore.

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2015, 09:59 AM

David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

Gustav · 28th August 2015, 10:54 AM

I will try to put my thoughts, when seeing the pictures of this Keris, in words.

OK, let's jump in cold water.

When I see this Keris, word "Mojopahit" comes in my mind. Yet I cannot be sure at all if it is a Keris from time period when Mojopahit existed. As I understand, there was a Mojopahit "revival" under Sultan Agungs reign, and perhaps it wasn't the only one.

And then there are South Sumatran forms of such kerisses. The variation here can have very big range, from quite primitive specimens to Keris, where I am not able to be sure about the exact origin.

Surely such influence of javanese court in Sumatra can be traced back to Adityawarman, who most probably was a cousin of Jayanegara.

This is so especially when I see a picture of some Megantoro. two or three of them come with South Sumatran hilts, like perhaps the most perfect Megantoro in existence, from book of Bezemer. I don't have it here, so I cannot tell, if the Pendok, which looks like mismatch, is added after the publication. Surely it had also a Pendok there.

Yet the present pendok clearly is not Solonese, and I never before have seen such pattern on a Pendok of Yogya style.

Actually when I look at a Megantoro, the whole idea seems to me un-javanese. I cannot describe this feeling. Perhaps a small support to this heretical thought would be the fact there is no Megantoro form in Bali. Yet we all know at least one variation of Megantoro in North Sumatran dress, in van Duurens Book.

To answer Davids question, I suppose, at some time the Keris of this thread had a sheath like Bezemers Megantoro, or captain Swanns Keris from Hales book.

Also attached a picture from Solyoms publication about Lampung, to illustrate how unexpected sheath forms could pop up in South Sumatra.

David · 28th August 2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

Yes Alan, i am quite aware that Gustav was talking about the hilt and penokok. Perhaps you hadn't been following my train of thought all along which was trying to rationalize this hilt form with this blade. I'm not sure if a North Sumatran hilt on a Palembang blade would be any less out of place than one on a Javanese blade. Sorry if my last statement confused you. It was written late in the day.

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2015, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the clarification David.

Yes, I did not follow your train of thought.

In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.

David · 29th August 2015, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the clarification David.

Yes, I did not follow your train of thought.

In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.

Well again Alan, that is why i stated, twice, that it was a shame that there is no sheath with this keris. This is also why i was questioning for more information on the rather vague provenance since i would image that when this hilt was actually married to this blade would present different possibilities for the reasons why they came together. As to the value of speculation, given the limited information, the one poor photo, the inaccurate description (this most certainly does not appear to be a Sulawesi hilt), etc, we can either speculate or simply say nice looking keris with an unusual pairing with a Northern Sumatran hilt, shrug our shoulders and move on...

28th August 2015, 10:54 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	I will try to put my thoughts, when seeing the pictures of this Keris, in words. OK, let's jump in cold water. When I see this Keris, word "Mojopahit" comes in my mind. Yet I cannot be sure at all if it is a Keris from time period when Mojopahit existed. As I understand, there was a Mojopahit "revival" under Sultan Agungs reign, and perhaps it wasn't the only one. And then there are South Sumatran forms of such kerisses. The variation here can have very big range, from quite primitive specimens to Keris, where I am not able to be sure about the exact origin. Surely such influence of javanese court in Sumatra can be traced back to Adityawarman, who most probably was a cousin of Jayanegara. This is so especially when I see a picture of some Megantoro. two or three of them come with South Sumatran hilts, like perhaps the most perfect Megantoro in existence, from book of Bezemer. I don't have it here, so I cannot tell, if the Pendok, which looks like mismatch, is added after the publication. Surely it had also a Pendok there. Yet the present pendok clearly is not Solonese, and I never before have seen such pattern on a Pendok of Yogya style. Actually when I look at a Megantoro, the whole idea seems to me un-javanese. I cannot describe this feeling. Perhaps a small support to this heretical thought would be the fact there is no Megantoro form in Bali. Yet we all know at least one variation of Megantoro in North Sumatran dress, in van Duurens Book. To answer Davids question, I suppose, at some time the Keris of this thread had a sheath like Bezemers Megantoro, or captain Swanns Keris from Hales book. Also attached a picture from Solyoms publication about Lampung, to illustrate how unexpected sheath forms could pop up in South Sumatra. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 28th August 2015 at 01:18 PM.

27th August 2015, 04:50 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks for flipping the keris Gustav. I agree that Sumatra is a likely origin for this hilt. I do feel that we are probably looking at a Javanese blade though which has me wondering about the marriage and who might have owned such a keris in Batavia in 1811.

28th August 2015, 12:43 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The blade is certainly a Javanese style and form, however there was a political and cultural link between the Javanese courts and the courts of South Sumatra for a very long time. Keris made in Central Jawa were present in South Sumatra, and some keris made in South Sumatra copied Central Javanese style and form. South Sumatra also had links with North Coast Jawa. It is not at all surprising that a keris like this could turn up in Batavia in the early 19th century.

28th August 2015, 07:07 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	No, not surprising, just wish we had more to go on. Of course Gustav has described this as a Northern Sumatran form, but i would also not be surprise that influences went further than Palembang. It would be interesting to know what sheath this wore.

28th August 2015, 09:59 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	David, Gustav was talking about the hilt and pendongkok, I'm talking about the keris itself:- the blade. Lots of dress variation in South Sumatra keris.

29th August 2015, 12:04 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks for the clarification David. Yes, I did not follow your train of thought. In truth, I do not have even the slightest curiosity about the mating of this hilt with this blade. There are just so many possible explanations that any speculation is in my opinion pretty pointless. If the blade was in a properly fitted wrongko some speculation might be justified, but with just a hilt? From my perspective, I don't think so.