Three items to identify

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone

I would appreciate your help in identifying the following weapons as I have been trying, unsuccessfully for what seems like ages.
The first is what appears to be a fighting knife. It is well made with a curved, single edged blade, having a fuller on each side just below the back edge. It has a steel knuckle guard with simple line, geometric decoratin. the handle comprises wood and alloy scales attached to the tang.
the scabbard is of leather covered wood with a steel chape and brass band near the throat. the band has the same decoration as the knuckle guard. The guard is attached to the pommel by peening over the tang. There is just something about it that makes me think it is home made. The overall length is 18 ins with a blade length of13.25 ins and width of 1.375 ins.

The second item I think is African and comprises of a steel pipe covered in leather work to enclose the blade which is made from a 0.375 ins dia rod squared off for the final 9 ins at the point. The handle is wood covered with leather. Overall length is 30 ins with blade length of 21.5 ins.

The final item could be Indian ? I have exhausted all my references and cannot locate anything on the web. Incidentally the final item is all steel with no decoration. Overall length is 23.5 ins with a blade length of 18.5 ins and width of 1.5 ins. The scabbard is wood with a steel chape but I do not think it is the original. Your comments would be appreciated.
Miguel

[Tim Simmons]

You have an old one of these
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20269

[Tim Simmons]

I have just remembered that I have one of these. A bit more fancy. The same blade form. Although the handle look as if it might fit on a ram rod and function like a bayonet, a rod to go through a 4mm hole would not take much force to bend out of shape so it would be pretty useless as a bayonet. These are just a hand held piercing weapon. I thought this piece interesting enough to hang on to.

[Henk]

Both knives are khyber knives or Pesh kabz. If you search in Google for khyber knife and you select pictures you will find them.

The African thing has already explained.

[AJ1356]

The first item seems Indian to me, it has some mid century Afghan aspects to it but seems Indian to me either way.
The second large knife is definately Afghan, I remember growing up with knoves with that kind of hilt. It would be considered as a seylaawa (wrongly named Khayber knife) just because of its size. I would guess late 1800s to early 1900s, you can check to see if it is made of wootz or ordinary steel.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

You have an old one of these
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20269

Hi Tim,
Thanks for your comments, most interesting, your spike like sword looks very new and the square spike is also better forged than mine. I think that I go along with Ian and Jim That it is made as a Tourist piece which probably places mine in the same category, I originally thought mine may be Manding but having obtained a number of Manding weapons I think the forging of the spike on mine is much to crude, no I think that it is for Tourists. Thanks again for your time.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

You have an old one of these
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20269

Hi Tim,
It`s me again I forgot to thank you for sharing the photos of your African stilettoes they look to be fine pieces.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Henk

Both knives are khyber knives or Pesh kabz. If you search in Google for khyber knife and you select pictures you will find them.

The African thing has already explained.

Hi Henk,
I don`t agree with you as I cannot personally see the resemblance with Pesh Kabez or Khyber Knife as they are of totally different design and construction.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The first item seems Indian to me, it has some mid century Afghan aspects to it but seems Indian to me either way.
The second large knife is definately Afghan, I remember growing up with knoves with that kind of hilt. It would be considered as a seylaawa (wrongly named Khayber knife) just because of its size. I would guess late 1800s to early 1900s, you can check to see if it is made of wootz or ordinary steel.

Hi A11356.
I don`t know whether it is Indian or what? I think that I will eventually track it down by the decoration.
I am not really sure that it is a Khyber Knife reason being that I have a small collection of them all differing sizes but all having the same construction of blade and hilt. The blade is `T` section and much lighter size for size with the one I am researching, they also have a straight edge. The blade on the item being discussed is flat 5mm thick which makes it much heavier and less well balanced, it also has a slight curve. I am not saying that it is not an Afghan knife but I am not convinced that it is a Khyber knife unless they come in different forms than the ones I have and which are the ones always shown in reference books. Thank you for your comments.
Regards
Miguel

[AJ1356]

Miguel, I am not saying it is a khyber knife, I am saying that because of its size, it would be called a seylawa in Afghanistan. It is not a pesh qabz and it is not a sword. Khyebr knife is a misnomer that has stuck and can not be shaken off, and they were not nesseccarily made it the Khyber region but throughout Afghanistan, not really norther parts but in regions of Kabul, Kandahar, Jalabad, and maybe Herat.

[trenchwarfare]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have just remembered that I have one of these. A bit more fancy. The same blade form. Although the handle look as if it might fit on a ram rod and function like a bayonet, a rod to go through a 4mm hole would not take much force to bend out of shape so it would be pretty useless as a bayonet. These are just a hand held piercing weapon. I thought this piece interesting enough to hang on to.

This piece is made to emulate the French Mle 1886 Lebel bayonet. I believe you are correct, it was made to slide over the rammer. Strong enough for combat, no. But for a one time coup-de-gras, quite sufficient. Probably from one of the former French colonies.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Miguel, I am not saying it is a khyber knife, I am saying that because of its size, it would be called a seylawa in Afghanistan. It is not a pesh qabz and it is not a sword. Khyebr knife is a misnomer that has stuck and can not be shaken off, and they were not nesseccarily made it the Khyber region but throughout Afghanistan, not really norther parts but in regions of Kabul, Kandahar, Jalabad, and maybe Herat.

And a seylawa doesn't necessarily have to look just like a 'Kyhber' ?

[AJ1356]

Pretty much, eventhough the term seylaawa is mainly referred to a "khyber", big knives are also called seylawa, because of lack of specific name.

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Henk,
I don`t agree with you as I cannot personally see the resemblance with Pesh Kabez or Khyber Knife as they are of totally different design and construction.
Regards
Miguel

This what i found on google
https://www.blackgate.com/2012/07/27...rd-collection/
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...6793&view=next

[AJ1356]

just because something is on google does not make it correct.

[Henk]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

just because something is on google does not make it correct.

Correct, but the sites you get on after searching on google is something different i suppose.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Henk

This what i found on google
https://www.blackgate.com/2012/07/27...rd-collection/
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...6793&view=next

Hi Henk,
I now see where you are coming from thanks for the links they have altered my thinking the hilt on the sword looks to be almost the same construction as mine and the key re knife article blows my mindset, thanks again for opening my mind it's great to be able to be part of this forum as I am learning all the time.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Miguel, I am not saying it is a khyber knife, I am saying that because of its size, it would be called a seylawa in Afghanistan. It is not a pesh qabz and it is not a sword. Khyebr knife is a misnomer that has stuck and can not be shaken off, and they were not nesseccarily made it the Khyber region but throughout Afghanistan, not really norther parts but in regions of Kabul, Kandahar, Jalabad, and maybe Herat.

Hi AJ1356'
Having read both yours and Henks comments and followed up on them I can see that my thinking was to fixed on this subject and must thank you for your information. I can only apologise for my lack of knowledge and thank you again for opening up my mind.
Regards
Miguel

[Henk]

you're welcome.