Odd Sword

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...

Iain · 31st July 2015, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

It is quite obviously a nice old European Blade. It was, however, imported after 1970 and joined to an equally nice Omani Battle Sword Hilt (then given the Royal Hilt treatment)...The hilt probably originally also quite old and I would reasonably guess about 200/250 years ....going by the look of the pommel...but it wouldn't matter if the hilt was 100 or 1,000 years old since they were stuck together in about 1970....in Mutrah. It is therefor what? An Omani Battle Sword?... I don't think so...Nice blade or not, the sword is a fake.

Ian · 31st July 2015, 06:52 PM

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic.

Ian.

A.alnakkas · 31st July 2015, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I believe various objections were made in the topic that got locked. And I did as well in this one. Unless you consider repetition to be a 'strong' argument then case is closed. But let me restate what Ibrahim considers to be the reason why these are fakes;

1- Omanis do not use European trade blades (unlike the whole world and existing evidence that they did)

2- Therefore all Omani swords with European blades are automatically deemed as fakes. Even when there is no evidence to that.

---

The Ethiopian swords drowning the Arab world from Yemen all the way to Syria (pre-mess) are well known, and yes, there are Arab craftsmen who used the fine trade blades on Ethiopian swords to make new swords. This is seen in Oman (on swords with NEW dress) and Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well. Now this does not mean that every single European blade made it to the region through Ethiopia and 1970 that Ibrahim keeps repeating. There is evidence in Museums and collections abroad and within the region of such blades existing in the region for quite a long time.

Both blades published here are not of the type that is commonly find on Ethiopian swords, and the rounded tip on the first shows elements that are Omani rather than Ethiopian. We all know the tourist sword industry, I see no reason why they would round the tip, antique the blade to perfection to sell to tourists? makes no sense at all. All that added to the patina, the proper quality old riveting on the hilt tang compared to swords shared by Ibrahim with crappy welding.

Also, by all means visit Oman and visit Mutrah, I've been there and the demand for older European blades like this is high and seen as part of the sword culture there. Not Ethiopian swords made by Wilkinson, but Portuguese blades and older German ones. There are rehilts in Mutrah, and those are pointed out as so. It also happens that all the swords with proper blades were in private collections, while the rehilts (obviously so to collectors) are offered for sale.

But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

Robert · 31st July 2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. alnakkas
But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

Gentlemen, any further sarcasm or baiting by anyone will be dealt with quickly and harshly. You have been warned.

Robert

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2015, 10:44 AM

The Inscription on # 1.

I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_...abetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46.

I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habers...ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for.

The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 31st July 2015, 04:32 PM

One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere.
The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it.
Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank.

.

31st July 2015, 06:52 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Ibrahiim: I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions. I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic. Ian.

1st August 2015, 10:44 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Inscription on # 1. I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_...abetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46. I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habers...ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for. The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

31st July 2015, 04:32 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere. The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it. Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank. .