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30th July 2015, 04:14 PM
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#1 | |
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Posts: 189
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Quote:
Further images would certainly be most enlightening, thank you! |
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31st July 2015, 03:29 PM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 189
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Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!
Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old! |
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31st July 2015, 05:23 PM
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#3 |
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
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Great looking saber!
It appears to have a bone grip, right? |
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31st July 2015, 05:29 PM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
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Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.
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31st July 2015, 06:15 PM
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#5 | |
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Posts: 189
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Quote:
I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters) The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company. I am always happy to hear other opinions. |
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1st August 2015, 01:33 AM
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#6 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Quote:
Chris, this is a beautiful sword, and what appears to be a Solingen blade, probably end of 18th to c. 1815. The M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilts were among the most widely varied of the British 'regulation' patterns. This was due to this of course being the first 'officially' recognized pattern date, and at this time there were a good number of makers all responding to orders from officers, often with their own design and innovations. I recall when I first collected British cavalry patterns many years ago, one challenging field was variations of the M1796 lt cavalry sabre for officers. The troopers swords were pretty standard, but officers had many nuanced differences in the backstrap, langets, and clearly the grips....often there were variations in blades as well. It seems I have seen this langet style somewhere, and it very well may have bee an EIC selection. If I can find some of the data I will add it here, there was some very obscure and brief articles back in the 70s it seems. It is unfortunate that EIC swords were never marked, nor it seems usually inscribed (none I have seen personally at least). I agree the grip does seem bone but hard to say, these officers had access to good ivory work in the EIC regions so that must be considered. |
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1st August 2015, 10:15 AM
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#7 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 189
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Hello Jim,
Many thanks indeed for chiming in on this one. I have always suspected, as have most of the people who have handled this particular sword, that the blade was of Indian manufacture. Whilst the blade itself is sound and still holding a wicked edge, the finish, especially around the fullers, isn't really up to the standard I have come to expect from a Solingen product of that era. Is there any particular indication that makes you think it is Solingen rather than Indian? Obviously their output during this period was prodigious (one only has to consider the amount of "J.J. Runkell" examples encountered) but I had no idea that they might be importing blades into India also. It is always good to revaluate things from time to time, especially those things which you have had so long that you have rather written them off as "knowing it all"! So I thank you for making me think twice about this old friend of mine. As you say, the dearth of markings on early EIC blades is something of a handicap, and does leave interpretation up to combinations of other features. But perhaps that is also part of the fun? I shall take some better images of the hilt, then perhaps, we might be able to tie that down slightly better! All the best, Chris |
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31st July 2015, 06:09 PM
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#8 | |
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Posts: 189
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Quote:
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2nd August 2015, 11:54 AM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
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In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur". A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached). In the text to the plate Hendley writes. "1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs. Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh." |
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2nd August 2015, 11:57 AM
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#10 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
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What a beauty Jens
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3rd August 2015, 06:59 AM
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#11 |
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 31
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Hi Chris & Jens,
I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again. I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa. Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred. On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise) |
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3rd August 2015, 09:16 AM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
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You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens |
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3rd August 2015, 09:37 AM
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#13 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
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Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson
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3rd August 2015, 09:00 PM
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#14 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 189
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Quote:
Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify. One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck. I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated! Quote:
Some of them took a long time to track down. RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest? Kind regards, Chris |
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3rd August 2015, 09:23 PM
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#15 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 189
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33rd Cavalry
Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.
The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword. If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1. Last edited by mrcjgscott; 3rd August 2015 at 09:38 PM. |
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4th August 2015, 04:57 PM
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#16 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 31
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Quote:
I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi. When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however. Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby? |
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3rd August 2015, 11:13 AM
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#17 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 31
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Quote:
I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa? |
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2nd May 2016, 02:31 AM
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#18 |
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Chino, CA.
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What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?
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2nd May 2016, 05:57 AM
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#19 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!! Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj. The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point . If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine. The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy. The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte. The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8). The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size. The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more. Welcome to our forum!!! Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade. All best regards Jim |
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2nd May 2016, 09:56 PM
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#20 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .
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3rd May 2016, 11:27 AM
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#21 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 63
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drac2k,
That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.or...ian-states.pdf |
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3rd May 2016, 12:23 PM
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#22 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Thank you for the information and that very informative link !
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3rd May 2016, 09:11 PM
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#23 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 27
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Frontier Field Force
Quote:
Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible. I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords. In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type. Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857. Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others. Regards, Gordon |
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10th November 2023, 08:59 PM
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#24 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 91
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Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm) Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm) -Geoffrey |
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10th November 2023, 10:10 PM
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#25 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Geoffrey! Thank you for reviving this thread, and so glad you're still at it with the 'swords of the Raj'
 It seems we are a limited bunch as this area of collecting and study is not widely brought up. What a great example of these 'colonial' sabers (as Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", 1967 calls them). It seems that these 'Paget Pattern" #6480 (Wilkinson, but Mole produced many for them) were in 31 1/2" blades for Madras and Bombay forces; while the 33" were deemed for Bengal. By those facts, very possible this might have been for a Bengal cavalry regiment, thus a good chance for lancers. My example (by Mole) is marked to 21C, from 1904 called "Daly's Horse" but a unit of Frontier Force. Pretty exciting history of all these cavalry regiments of the Raj. No idea what the numbers below 21C mean, there were so any number combinations with administrative coding. |
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21st November 2023, 05:59 PM
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#26 |
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 91
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Hi Jim, thank you for the information! I did not know of the designations for differentiating blade lengths and the possible associated with the Bengal forces with the 33” size. Your example is very similar and you’re lucky to have stampings attributed to the 21st calvary, a nice slice of history provenance. I will provide a few links that I have found if anybody is interested in some more information. The first: the Imperial War Museum, second: Australian War Memorial, and third: a brief Youtube video of the history and description of the type.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001638 https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C226996 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k92PstHFQRM -Geoffrey |
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