Anglo-Indian army swords

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

[mrcjgscott]

The following images are reproduced here by the kind permission of Robert Wilkinson Latham. Naturally all copyright belongs to Robert, and they are not to be reproduced without his permission.

The first images shows India Office "tulwar" blades and 1907 pattern bayonets being finished at Wilkinson's factory in Acton in 1915.

The second shows an Apprentice handing three bar hilts to a fitter, working on the bending and shaping machine in 1916.

The third shows a pattern photograph of the hilt of a P08 Indian cavalry troopers sword.

The fourth images shows pattern drawings for a three bar cavalry sword circa 1914.
Robert notes "I am sure that the so called Bengal, Paget etc patterns referred to blade type and hilts were different depending on the regiment, there being a variety of known but mainly unidentified hilt types. The most common is of course the 3 bar version. (When it comes to the maharaja's forces, this three bar hilt was often fitted with a medallion on the hilt for whatever state and there are of course regular cavalry variations.!!!!

Eventually the 3 bar hilt dominated circa 1914 when the India Store Depot produced a full size drawings (Ref 9470) and specification for the 3 bar hilted sword (Pattern 6480) which was designated Sword Tulwar Cavalry."

The final image shows a hilt detail of an Indian Cavalry sword. This type of walnut grip is peculiar to swords made for Indian service and others of the type have been associated with private purchase officers swords of the period.

Kind regards,

Chris

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

Ahhh I see, that is certainly a new one on me, every day is a school day!

Further images would certainly be most enlightening, thank you!

[mrcjgscott]

Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!

Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old!

[Shakethetrees]

Great looking saber!

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

[sirupate]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

I believe so Shakethetrees, although I could not tell you from which animal it came.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[sirupate]

What a beauty Jens

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[Silver John]

Hi Chris & Jens,

I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again.

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

[sirupate]

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

Very sorry if my last post came across as rude Jens, re-reading it I should have phrased it differently and started the post with "I think..." I am very new to these translations and still have a great deal to learn!

I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa?

[Helleri]

What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

[drac2k]

Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .

[Rumpel]

drac2k,

That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.or...ian-states.pdf

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible.

I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords.

In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type.

Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857.

Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others.

Regards,

Gordon

[G. Mansfield]

Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm)
Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm)

-Geoffrey