Research

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Jim is a dedicated researcher - taking notes and keeping them for decades :-).

Some time back I wrote an article How Old is the Katar? published in The Royal Armour Journal.
Untill then Ibn Battute's (14th century) description of a katar, being used to kill a travelling companion of his, was the first known description of a katar.
In the article I have taken it back to the 10th century Orissa. I only had a drawing to show in the article; now I have also found a photo of the statue with the katar. But there is a gap from the katar I wrote about, to the katars we have in our collections - although I have a very early one, there still seem to be a gap.
To day I may have found one of 'the missing links'. I have not seen any pictures so far, but if I am correct it is from the 12th century. I do hope I am correct, as it would show the development of the katar, from the 10th century to the katars we now know.

Research can take a long time, and sometimes when you have finished, something new comes up. Research means to keep you mind open, and to be able to change your mind when new things suddenly appears.

[ariel]

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.
I wrote comments, pointing out to these gross deficiencies and trying to be as polite as possible.
I was sternly reprimanded for discouraging the novices from posting their ideas and for pointing out their errors.
Since then I am trying to keep very low profile.

If this Forum wants academic discussions, then it should adopt the " no holds barred" approach.
Being a current Assoc . Editor of 2 major scientific Journals, as well as Assoc Editor or Editorial Board member of a dozen more in the past I can assure you that the level of criticism in the real academic world is several orders of magnitude more severe than here, and that any self-respecting scientific journal rejects at least 80% of submissions.

The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society.

[David R]

Once upon a time, there was no internet, no collectors forums, no Google and no Wikipedia. Now there are!
I have been collecting for 49 years, starting with some absolute rubbish and working my way up to desirable and well researched rubbish. Research was done in Libraries and Museums and pumping the more knowledgeable I met in the shops and at the Fairs. Dear God how I bent the ears of those poor dealers and other collectors!
Rejoice in the vast resource we now have, and have sympathy for those who now enter the Maelstrom of collecting, for just as there is more information easily available, so are there more opportunities to come a cropper, Ebay and Alibaba you know who you are......
I could not collect the way I do now without the internet, I also use it to research beyond my comfort zone, and elsewhere I happily share what I have learned with others. The medium has changed, but it is still the same hobby. Pay it forward.

[Kubur]

I think all has been said. I would like to add that the research's world is not an ideal world. Most of the researchers are not looking to improve knowledge. Most of them are very confortable with little ideas and little projects. Most of them are reproducing knowledge, very few are doing real research. The ones who are doing real research are fighting against windmills.
Best,
Kubur

[Ian]

Ariel, I am reminded of a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger. When asked, "Why do academics fight so viciously?" he is reported to have responded, "Because there is so little at stake."

As academics, we are trained by our mentors to attack without mercy (in the name of objective criticism) and to defend at all costs. After battling the wild rapids of academic discourse, it is sometimes difficult to adjust to a quiet backwater like this forum. Here we are more often dealing with civilians than combatants, and need to adjust accordingly. There are ways of pointing out errors in logic, assumptions, biases, etc. that are not perceived as "hostile." After all, there is so little at stake here too. We can have spirited and lively debate here, and often do, and I see no reason why discussions based on academic principles cannot be conducted here--just in a more gentle and polite manner than in the academic sphere.

Ian.

Originally Posted by ariel

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.
I wrote comments, pointing out to these gross deficiencies and trying to be as polite as possible.
I was sternly reprimanded for discouraging the novices from posting their ideas and for pointing out their errors.
Since then I am trying to keep very low profile.

If this Forum wants academic discussions, then it should adopt the " no holds barred" approach.
Being a current Assoc . Editor of 2 major scientific Journals, as well as Assoc Editor or Editorial Board member of a dozen more in the past I can assure you that the level of criticism in the real academic world is several orders of magnitude more severe than here, and that any self-respecting scientific journal rejects at least 80% of submissions.

The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society.

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by ariel

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.

There is evidently a huge difference between accumulating information for our own personal interest and conducting legitimate research.

Can anyone recommend a text that lays out the correct way to record and assess historical information and evidence? It would be a shame to spend years looking into a particular subject only to find that nothing one has uncovered is given credence by other collectors and researchers.

[Ian]

Jens:

What you describe is the type of original contribution to the field that does not come to many of us. Tracing the origins of past weapons is important historical research that defines the diffusion of styles through trade and warfare that also reflects other aspects of human history. The history of weapons has not received the same attention as, say, the history of jewellery, pottery, art, or even personal items such as belt buckles or hair combs. And yet, the type of weapons we explore are historical artifacts.

Recently I purchased through online auction a 300+ year-old, SE Asian sword in excellent condition for less than $200. This is uncommon, but would be almost impossible to find at this price if we were talking about other significant items (e.g., jewellery) of similar age and quality. The point I am trying to make is that important historical weapons are still available to the collector--we can make contributions by posting these here and putting them in an historical context.

Like Jens, I search for drawings and photographs from various sources, visit museums and galleries, read the accounts of earlier travelers in the lands I am interested in, and visit field sites when I can. The information and ideas come slowly. Perhaps that is why this type of collecting seems to be an "old guys" hobby.

Ian

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim is a dedicated researcher - taking notes and keeping them for decades :-).

Some time back I wrote an article How Old is the Katar? published in The Royal Armour Journal.
Untill then Ibn Battute's (14th century) description of a katar, being used to kill a travelling companion of his, was the first known description of a katar.
In the article I have taken it back to the 10th century Orissa. I only had a drawing to show in the article; now I have also found a photo of the statue with the katar. But there is a gap from the katar I wrote about, to the katars we have in our collections - although I have a very early one, there still seem to be a gap.
To day I may have found one of 'the missing links'. I have not seen any pictures so far, but if I am correct it is from the 12th century. I do hope I am correct, as it would show the development of the katar, from the 10th century to the katars we now know.

Research can take a long time, and sometimes when you have finished, something new comes up. Research means to keep you mind open, and to be able to change your mind when new things suddenly appears.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
Thanks for your post, but you must remember that this forum is not only for scholars, it is also for new collectors, who understand very little when they have just started.

David,
We have been collecting about the same number of years, but apart from you, I was lucky as The first tulwar I bought, which still is one of my best, was chosen for me by the dealer Helge Broens Hansen - so I was very lucky to have my first tulwar to look at when I wanted to buy another one.

Kubur,
Please remember that most collectors concentrate on a very small field, but in that field they are mostly very good, and have a very big knowledge.

Ian,
I always like your mails, so thank you for writing.
I recently got a tulwar - with a shamshir blade. There was writing on the hilt telling me that it must have belonged to a Shit, but there was also a name on the blade. I was half up the wall when I found out that it had belonged to Saadat Ali Khan Bahadur - the first nawab og Oudh.
Under Muhammad Shah he was one of the most powerful men in India, but he died the day before Delhi was sacked by Nadir Shah of Persia.
I am sure you, and many others know how I felt, when I found out - and the following research. Yes it took some time, and I am not sure I am finished yet.

Thanks for all the posts

Jens

[CharlesS]

My interest in cross cultural items from throughout the Islamic world often comes with very little research done on it. That's why it is important for me to know at least something of the weapons of a variety of cultures...at the very least enough to recognize the very nature of the "cultures crossed" by some unique piece.

I think it is both fun and important to record the seemingly endless possibilities, and that's why I do it here.

For me it's all about accumulating as many pics as possible...old catalogs, old photos, old auctions, web sites, and of course old and new books.

I can remember a debate on here some years ago regarding the origins of what we now call the "Black Sea yataghan". Essentially one photo in one Russian publication about 10 years ago ended the debate! Pics as well as info are essential...no matter how old or seemingly out of context they may be.

[Ian]

Good points Charles. Cross-cultural pieces are indeed fascinating and again speak to diffusion of styles among different cultures that reflect other sociological/anthropological interactions. It would be a great addition to the forum, I think, if we had some social scientists participating here who could speak to some of these cross-cultural influences.

We also get a lot of information about changes in a particular weapon over time by discovering "transition pieces," those that seem to fall between two identified forms of the same weapon, within the same culture. We had an example on the Forum just recently in a discussion on Tunisian daggers (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20240).

While many of us tend to focus on the blade of an edged weapon as its main defining feature, there is important information too from a study of guards, hilts, scabbards, belts and other suspension devices. Although such fittings may be replaced over time, they can tell a lot about the particular culture in which that weapon was used or re-used.

For those who collect antique firearms, I'm sure there are similar approaches and issues to address. Those topics are way outside my comfort zone so I'll let others comment on firearms research.

Ian.

Originally Posted by CharlesS

My interest in cross cultural items from throughout the Islamic world often comes with very little research done on it. That's why it is important for me to know at least something of the weapons of a variety of cultures...at the very least enough to recognize the very nature of the "cultures crossed" by some unique piece.

I think it is both fun and important to record the seemingly endless possibilities, and that's why I do it here.

For me it's all about accumulating as many pics as possible...old catalogs, old photos, old auctions, web sites, and of course old and new books.

I can remember a debate on here some years ago regarding the origins of what we now call the "Black Sea yataghan". Essentially one photo in one Russian publication about 10 years ago ended the debate! Pics as well as info are essential...no matter how old or seemingly out of context they may be.

[ariel]

I am not advocating aggressive, personal and insulting remarks.
However, I was,- and still am,- a bit disappointed by the insipid nature of comments. Even when the thesis advanced is plainly illiterate, the general rule is to say something along the lines " Oh, very interesting, nice job" and avoid addressing obvious deficiencies of the argument.
There are plenty of people here who have more than enough smarts and knowledge to negate the wrong data and fallacious conclusions in a polite but firm way.
If they remain silent, the rest of us have no opportunity to learn.

Enough said.

[spiral]

Interesting thread Jens...

I guess in this age of closing library's being replaced by the internet as "The learning medium." for many, It shouldn't surprise me that for some the full scope of research & indeed the first step of research is to post something & says "whats this"

I guess some are happy just to collect & be told what something is, others get part of the pleasure of collecting from researching , I guess that's those amongst us who have a thirst for knowledge not just a plain possession.


Spiral

[Rich]

Ariel wrote:

"The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society."

I would respectfully disagree. This forum has been doing quite well for a long time for both newbies and seasoned collectors. Let's just keep it polite and civilized. I too am a scientist and academic with numerous papers under my belt. I've had to defend my results in front of large groups of my peers; sometimes it does get "no holds barred", but it is civilized and polite - I think we are capable of doing that. Cool it and have fun and enjoy what we learn and/or share!
Rich

-------------------------------------------------------
Rich S, PhD, FAIC

Japanese Sword Guide
http://japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm