Southern India sword?

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2015, 09:42 PM

I go with Spiral.
As I too think it could be an Afghan sable.
Jens

kronckew · 20th July 2015, 10:00 PM

it does look like a variant on these afghan short swords i googled up a minute ago: no upper guard projection on mine tho, no sign there ever was one that broke off either. the end is also not touching or fastened toi the pommel like the afghan ones.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2015, 11:14 PM

Very astute observation Jens! It does seem possible that the Afghan connection might come in here. I think I learned a great deal when we talked on the Deccan, and the complex connections between those regions and Afghanistan. With that in mind, such diffusion of 'southern' style surely might extend into areas of the Northwest.

Kronckew, those curious military swords were what came to mind when I saw Afghanistan mentioned. These are actually a quite different 'breed' though, and last year Mahratt did a brilliant study on these. These are apparently a regulation type sword produced at the Machin Khana in Kabul, a British subsidized factory dealing primarily in firearms.

With Afghanistan in mind, I would point out that in the Northwest Frontier regions there were often examples of tulwar without the pommel disc (such examples can be seen in Tirri). While it is often presumed these 'open' hilt forms were altered by removal of the pommel disc, I have handled an example (provenance from Khyber regions in 1930s) in which it seems there never was a disc on the otherwise Indo-Persian style hilt.

spiral · 21st July 2015, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I go with Spiral.
As I too think it could be an Afghan sable.
Jens

That's pleasing Jens, its always good when a more experienced fellow agrees with ones idle musings, based on my limited observations of pieces from this region...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

it does look like a variant on these afghan short swords i googled up a minute ago: no upper guard projection on mine tho, no sign there ever was one that broke off either. the end is also not touching or fastened toi the pommel like the afghan ones.

That's a particular genre you show Kronckew, but I think there many styles of blades & hilts in that region, many impromptu & individual but for me the gestalt of the piece is more NWT or Afghanistan . Others mileage may vary...

spiral

Ian · 21st July 2015, 01:45 AM

There is an old thread on these swords here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001976.html

Ian.

kronckew · 3rd August 2015, 08:19 AM

discussing hilt grip materials on another site, we got into stag, which reminded me of the attached (upper) short sword that i now compare to my new one. another trade blade? (posted here earlier in a discussion on scottish skians)

20th July 2015, 10:00 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	it does look like a variant on these afghan short swords i googled up a minute ago: no upper guard projection on mine tho, no sign there ever was one that broke off either. the end is also not touching or fastened toi the pommel like the afghan ones. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 20th July 2015 at 10:19 PM.

3rd August 2015, 08:19 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	discussing hilt grip materials on another site, we got into stag, which reminded me of the attached (upper) short sword that i now compare to my new one. another trade blade? (posted here earlier in a discussion on scottish skians) Attached Images

20th July 2015, 09:42 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I go with Spiral. As I too think it could be an Afghan sable. Jens

20th July 2015, 11:14 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very astute observation Jens! It does seem possible that the Afghan connection might come in here. I think I learned a great deal when we talked on the Deccan, and the complex connections between those regions and Afghanistan. With that in mind, such diffusion of 'southern' style surely might extend into areas of the Northwest. Kronckew, those curious military swords were what came to mind when I saw Afghanistan mentioned. These are actually a quite different 'breed' though, and last year Mahratt did a brilliant study on these. These are apparently a regulation type sword produced at the Machin Khana in Kabul, a British subsidized factory dealing primarily in firearms. With Afghanistan in mind, I would point out that in the Northwest Frontier regions there were often examples of tulwar without the pommel disc (such examples can be seen in Tirri). While it is often presumed these 'open' hilt forms were altered by removal of the pommel disc, I have handled an example (provenance from Khyber regions in 1930s) in which it seems there never was a disc on the otherwise Indo-Persian style hilt.

21st July 2015, 01:45 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	There is an old thread on these swords here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001976.html Ian.