Southern India sword?

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2015, 05:31 PM

The triple fuller trade blades are well known from Solingen end of 18th c. and these were well known in India, especially in Deccani areas as these states often used German mercenary forces and arms. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan were key examples, and the swords known as 'alemani').

The distinction between South and North India in classifying weapons is constantly compromised by the often vaguely applied use of the term Deccan. There are various perspectives on whether this is a geographic or cultural application, and there were profound connections between the Deccani regions considered Southern and those to the Northwest .
There lies part of the conundrum of regionally classifying Indian arms in so many instances.
The axiom I was once told, 'weapons have no geographic boundaries' always reminds me of this in all manner of ethnographic studies. The only real solution is often preponderance and or reliable provenance .

kronckew · 4th July 2015, 10:12 PM

another tidbit of info. the sword (mine) was found in france, which we tend to forget had 'posessions' in south east india and further influence in nearby areas for quite a while. could have been brought back by a frenchman in that era of the french east india co. - 18/19c.

or maybe a french collector like us acquired it from only god knows where.

i love a good mystery. especially if it has swords in it.

RSWORD · 5th July 2015, 01:26 AM

Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like the blade was mounted up with this guard when the blade was in its current condition. The rust/patina of the blade continues on undisturbed beneath the guard. If it had been there a long time you would have expected the patina to follow the outline of the guard and the holes and not be continuous from the exposed blade portion. Not to say the handle and blade haven't been together for awhile but the guard seems a much, much later addition. Still, an interesting piece that one wishes could speak to us.

kronckew · 5th July 2015, 09:20 AM

? - i would expect if anything, the patina and corrosion to be worse under the brass & roughly the same in the exposed holes, exposed to the same corrosive conditions. brass in contact with steel would set up a galvanic corrosion cell if not kept oiled. steel is higher in the galvanic series than brass and thus will corrode preferentially.

anyway, if trade blades were common at the end of the 18th c. it's possible an old patinated blade still in working condition may have been rehilted in the early 19th. as it appears to be shorter than the normal european blade, it may have broken off & the owner had it rehilted as a full exposed tang hanger/cutlass, thus the fullers extending under the filigreed brass. waste not want not

i suspect some bright spark thinking he'd increase the bling value has cleaned it & polished the brass recently. will know more when my supplier returns from france early this week 7 posts it to me so i can supply better photos.

kronckew · 16th July 2015, 09:13 AM

my supplier returned from france monday (strikes in france & illegals storming the tunnel & ferries have been a nightmare last week or so) & posted the item. finally arrived a few minutes ago today.

blade is 61 cm - 24 in.
LOA is 73 cm. - 29 in.
weight is 476 gm. - 1.05 lb.

the flexible blade is fairly thin, 5mm at the grip, distal tapered to the point. sharp false edge about 6 in. the brass filigreed part is integral to the rest of the guard and tight to the blade and down into the fullers, the corrosion appears to follow the outline of the brass but not under it.

it is a full exposed tang with brass grip liners, separate from the brass of the guard and horn grip slabs pinned to it via brass rivets. some of the brass is worn bright tho tarnished, some has a deep dark patina. inside the bow it is almost black, as are sections of the brass grip scale liners.

there is a small 1mm gap between the front of the scales & the guard that looks like a missing shim or spacer.

i suspect that this hanger was made from a much longer broken blade.

the shiney brass polished look i noted in the earlier photos must have been an artifact added by the suppliers phone camera logic.

will take a few pics for posting here later after i walk the dog and have my breakfast.

kronckew · 16th July 2015, 04:14 PM

today's photos - didn't turn out as well as i'd hoped. light wasn't right. bit overcast. may try again when we have a sunny day.

spiral · 16th July 2015, 04:42 PM

mmmm I wouldn't rule out Afghanistan either... they used short swords, the guard could be right for that area as could the file work grip on the horn hilt...

5th July 2015, 09:20 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	? - i would expect if anything, the patina and corrosion to be worse under the brass & roughly the same in the exposed holes, exposed to the same corrosive conditions. brass in contact with steel would set up a galvanic corrosion cell if not kept oiled. steel is higher in the galvanic series than brass and thus will corrode preferentially. anyway, if trade blades were common at the end of the 18th c. it's possible an old patinated blade still in working condition may have been rehilted in the early 19th. as it appears to be shorter than the normal european blade, it may have broken off & the owner had it rehilted as a full exposed tang hanger/cutlass, thus the fullers extending under the filigreed brass. waste not want not i suspect some bright spark thinking he'd increase the bling value has cleaned it & polished the brass recently. will know more when my supplier returns from france early this week 7 posts it to me so i can supply better photos. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2015 at 09:31 AM.

16th July 2015, 09:13 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	my supplier returned from france monday (strikes in france & illegals storming the tunnel & ferries have been a nightmare last week or so) & posted the item. finally arrived a few minutes ago today. blade is 61 cm - 24 in. LOA is 73 cm. - 29 in. weight is 476 gm. - 1.05 lb. the flexible blade is fairly thin, 5mm at the grip, distal tapered to the point. sharp false edge about 6 in. the brass filigreed part is integral to the rest of the guard and tight to the blade and down into the fullers, the corrosion appears to follow the outline of the brass but not under it. it is a full exposed tang with brass grip liners, separate from the brass of the guard and horn grip slabs pinned to it via brass rivets. some of the brass is worn bright tho tarnished, some has a deep dark patina. inside the bow it is almost black, as are sections of the brass grip scale liners. there is a small 1mm gap between the front of the scales & the guard that looks like a missing shim or spacer. i suspect that this hanger was made from a much longer broken blade. the shiney brass polished look i noted in the earlier photos must have been an artifact added by the suppliers phone camera logic. will take a few pics for posting here later after i walk the dog and have my breakfast. Last edited by kronckew; 16th July 2015 at 09:26 AM.

16th July 2015, 04:14 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	today's photos - didn't turn out as well as i'd hoped. light wasn't right. bit overcast. may try again when we have a sunny day. Attached Images

4th July 2015, 05:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The triple fuller trade blades are well known from Solingen end of 18th c. and these were well known in India, especially in Deccani areas as these states often used German mercenary forces and arms. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan were key examples, and the swords known as 'alemani'). The distinction between South and North India in classifying weapons is constantly compromised by the often vaguely applied use of the term Deccan. There are various perspectives on whether this is a geographic or cultural application, and there were profound connections between the Deccani regions considered Southern and those to the Northwest . There lies part of the conundrum of regionally classifying Indian arms in so many instances. The axiom I was once told, 'weapons have no geographic boundaries' always reminds me of this in all manner of ethnographic studies. The only real solution is often preponderance and or reliable provenance .

4th July 2015, 10:12 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	another tidbit of info. the sword (mine) was found in france, which we tend to forget had 'posessions' in south east india and further influence in nearby areas for quite a while. could have been brought back by a frenchman in that era of the french east india co. - 18/19c. or maybe a french collector like us acquired it from only god knows where. i love a good mystery. especially if it has swords in it.

5th July 2015, 01:26 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like the blade was mounted up with this guard when the blade was in its current condition. The rust/patina of the blade continues on undisturbed beneath the guard. If it had been there a long time you would have expected the patina to follow the outline of the guard and the holes and not be continuous from the exposed blade portion. Not to say the handle and blade haven't been together for awhile but the guard seems a much, much later addition. Still, an interesting piece that one wishes could speak to us.

16th July 2015, 04:42 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm I wouldn't rule out Afghanistan either... they used short swords, the guard could be right for that area as could the file work grip on the horn hilt...