Afghan Pistol

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts)
While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

You are most welcome Kubur! and again, thank you for these great postings. Also nicely done on the pages on the Persian connection.
The Tirri book is a great collectors handbook, nicely illustrated but seriously lacking in text and explanatory detail in my opinion. I still consider it an outstanding resource visually.
Actually in addition to the British participation in the Persian enterprises in arms, they were very active in Afghanistan, notably Kabul, where they subsidized the Machin Khana factory. Though here the focus was on the Enfield rifles and some bayonets and edged weapons, one cannot help but wonder if any of these pistols might have been produced there.
The flintlock remained a favored weapon in tribal units, even in the fascinating 'irregular' regiments of cavalry until end of the 19th c.

The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim

rickystl · 18th July 2015, 06:43 PM

"BUMP"
This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc.

The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod.

Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date.
This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick.

kahnjar1 · 18th July 2015, 08:28 PM

Hi Rick,
Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored.
You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please.
Stu

rickystl · 18th July 2015, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored.
You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please.
Stu

Hi Stu.
Woopps........thought they were included, but I see theyre not. See below........
Rick

kahnjar1 · 18th July 2015, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Woopps........thought they were included, but I see theyre not. See below........
Rick

They look like small footprints!!!

Not familiar with them at all.
Stu

rickystl · 19th July 2015, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

They look like small footprints!!!

Not familiar with them at all.
Stu

That's what I thought too.

LOL!!!! Have no idea/

Rick.

Shakethetrees · 19th July 2015, 05:24 AM

[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era!

I will create a new thread when I get more.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2015, 05:49 AM

Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!!

As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go.
It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc.
What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em!
They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others.

One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers.

It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units.
Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.

Shakethetrees · 19th July 2015, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!

Yes, I have been hunting for any c.1850-ish era insignia and medals named to the Poonah Irregular Horse, but, sadly, have only found WWI era badges.

Swords? I do not know the pattern they used during his period, or if they may have been marked to this particular unit! If so, I'm in trouble...

Anyone know of something in this category that can help me out, please PM!

Even images that show this pistol on uniformed troopers. I would like to do an article for a magazine.

I know of some print images that are owned by the Woolwich Museum and possibly the National Army Museum in London. (They were used in a book entitled "Indian Army" or something like this!) by Mollo, but I don't have permission to use them.

There are even a few paintings held by a Regimental Museums depicting the regiment at Kushab, if my memory is correct.

If I get off my A** and tighten the legal end of this up! I think this could be a great article.

AHorsa · 8th February 2023, 09:30 PM

I also got one of those pistols from the estate of my dad. He bought it together with the sword from my other thread and some other stuff from Afghanistan in 1971.
Is it possible that the lock(-plate) is british? I think I see a lion and sort of a proof stamp.

Best regards
Andreas

David R · 9th February 2023, 11:57 AM

Over the years I have had a few of these guns, in various states and of various patterns. The first two I bought from Colonel Corrie of Steeple Bumpstead, via the old printed Exchange and Mart. One was very much on the lines of a horse pistol with a hand forged lock and what had been a nice Persian style barrel. The other was a gaspipe special with a repurposed shotgun lock. Both percussion, and both still loaded! Apparently they were Kurdish Saturday Night Specials, and were gathered up by the Sha's police after they were dumped after an incident.
The other two were much nicer and reworked from more conventional origins in India. I wish I still had them, but as the old Chinese saying has it, "the wise man knows that in the course of a long life, there will be more than one occasion when he has to abandon everything!"
I still have a couple of Damascus rifle barrels I bought from the old colonel, bought for projects that never materialised. Those were the days!

18th July 2015, 06:43 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	"BUMP" This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc. The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod. Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date. This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick. Attached Images

8th February 2023, 09:30 PM	#11
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	I also got one of those pistols from the estate of my dad. He bought it together with the sword from my other thread and some other stuff from Afghanistan in 1971. Is it possible that the lock(-plate) is british? I think I see a lion and sort of a proof stamp. Best regards Andreas Attached Images

18th July 2015, 08:28 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Rick, Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored. You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please. Stu

19th July 2015, 05:24 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc. The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago! 'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you! Best regards, Jim[/QUOTE] Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era! I will create a new thread when I get more.

19th July 2015, 05:49 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!! As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go. It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc. What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em! They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others. One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers. It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units. Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.

9th February 2023, 11:57 AM	#12
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	Over the years I have had a few of these guns, in various states and of various patterns. The first two I bought from Colonel Corrie of Steeple Bumpstead, via the old printed Exchange and Mart. One was very much on the lines of a horse pistol with a hand forged lock and what had been a nice Persian style barrel. The other was a gaspipe special with a repurposed shotgun lock. Both percussion, and both still loaded! Apparently they were Kurdish Saturday Night Specials, and were gathered up by the Sha's police after they were dumped after an incident. The other two were much nicer and reworked from more conventional origins in India. I wish I still had them, but as the old Chinese saying has it, "the wise man knows that in the course of a long life, there will be more than one occasion when he has to abandon everything!" I still have a couple of Damascus rifle barrels I bought from the old colonel, bought for projects that never materialised. Those were the days!