Go on...show us your Choora!!

ariel · 7th June 2015, 04:29 AM

Mahratt,
Why are you so nervous?
On what grounds do you call these labels a fake?

You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question.

The important thing is the age.

David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions.

Thanks.

ariel · 7th June 2015, 05:06 AM

Ward, thank you.
These labels were examined by a person fluent in both Urdu and Pashto.
This is Pashto. However, he was unable to make sense of any other textual snippets with the exception of a very tentative "Mohammed" on the better preserved one. Also, these labels were examined by the Curator of the Islamic Manuscripts collection in the Dept. of Restoration. She pointed out to some numbers in the right upper corners of both labels. According to her, they represent typical archival entries ( accounting entries, collection entries, documents rosters etc, etc.) on old Indian/Afghani documents , including 19th century.

Dr. Baker examined not only the composition of papers and inks, but also assessed the potential age of paper, leather and wood. This is something she was trained to do, deals regularly with, presented multiple lectures all over the world and published papers about. In a way, this is identical to how the conservators and restorers examine and assess book bindings.

As a professional book/binding restorer, she dated the paper/wood/leather complexes as compatible with mid 19th century or earlier and definitely older than 20th century. She maintained this conclusion even without taking the numbers 1854 and 1840 into account. Simply by the state of the materials. And she had the advantage of actually handling these objects and doing her traditional tests on them.

Should we accept the testimony of an expert witness or dismiss it?

The labels had to be attached to the scabbards after the manufacture of these chooras and aged in parallel with them from there on. The estimates of their age as mid-19th century, therefore, give the absolutely latest date of their manufacture, and this is the reason why they may be even older.

You are correct: this is the most unexpected and fascinating discussion we have had in a very long time. We are dealing here with dating an old weapon using a completely novel and hitherto never used approach. Fifty years ago the idea of using DNA samples as a method of finding an accused guilty or innocent would have been viewed as totally crazy:-)

ward · 7th June 2015, 05:39 AM

That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

ariel · 7th June 2015, 06:19 AM

Thanks, Ward.

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

Dear Ward. Ariel refers to the opinion of an expert. It's pretty cool. But! One thing is when the expert concludes about the age books (hardcover leather), which was stored (because the books are always stored in special conditions. And those that do not keep do not get to the experts). Another thing - a knife, which is constantly used. Its details (especially wood and leather scabbard) wear out quickly. And it is hardly an expert on the books (with all due respect) can accurately determine the age of leather and wood scabbard.
I have to say Ariel in Russian forum that his version is very interesting. But this is only version. And the evidence is not sufficient. To say that choor were in the 19th century can only when we find choor in the museum, and in this museum is to be recorded from the 19th century, Kotra said choora was the exhibit is the collection of the 19th century. K Unfortunately everything else is just speculation. On the existence of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster is also a lot of debating. Someone believes in them, some do not. It is everyone's right. But no serious evidence of their existence...

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Mahratt,
Why are you so nervous?
On what grounds do you call these labels a fake?

You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question.

The important thing is the age.

David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions.

Thanks.

Ariel, my friend, and who of us nervous? I just express my assumption. Please quote, where I said that your "labels" - a fake?

I am delighted that David has agreed with you. That is his right. And my right to express my opinion on your version of the "19th century". The pictures are just pertain to the topic of discussion. It is strange that you do not want to see. And let's not plugging each other's mouth. You express your opinion in the forum of items, and I express my opinion.

Kurt · 7th June 2015, 08:43 AM

Hi ,

What is your opinion about this Choora ??

Kurt

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hi ,

What is your opinion about this Choora ??

Kurt

Hi Kurt!

Lovely choora! My opinion is. Some Waziri took the blade from the Pesh-Kabz did handle to choora (usual for myself). When this was done - no one knows ... I saw choor with wootz blades Pes-Kabz, Kard and even Jambiya.

Kurt · 7th June 2015, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hi Kurt!

Lovely choora! My opinion is. Some Waziri took the blade from the Pesh-Kabz did handle to choora (usual for myself). When this was done - no one knows ... I saw choor with wootz blades Pes-Kabz, Kard and even Jambiya.

Hi Mahratt ,
Is also my opinion !
Kurt

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hi Mahratt ,
Is also my opinion !
Kurt

Thank you my friend! I am delighted that our views coincide.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th June 2015, 01:31 PM

Interesting discussion, and I must say that Ariel has done his home work well :-).
I am no specialist on chooras, but if I was asked I would have guessed 19th century.
To skipp the discussion on the paper, ink and handwriting I would have suggested that the wood should be checked, but I see that this has been done, and the result was 19th century.
So not only does the chooras seem to be 19th century, the scabbards as well, which is nice to know - especially for Ariel :-).
Jens

7th June 2015, 04:29 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mahratt, Why are you so nervous? On what grounds do you call these labels a fake? You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question. The important thing is the age. David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions. Thanks. Last edited by ariel; 7th June 2015 at 06:28 AM.

7th June 2015, 05:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ward, thank you. These labels were examined by a person fluent in both Urdu and Pashto. This is Pashto. However, he was unable to make sense of any other textual snippets with the exception of a very tentative "Mohammed" on the better preserved one. Also, these labels were examined by the Curator of the Islamic Manuscripts collection in the Dept. of Restoration. She pointed out to some numbers in the right upper corners of both labels. According to her, they represent typical archival entries ( accounting entries, collection entries, documents rosters etc, etc.) on old Indian/Afghani documents , including 19th century. Dr. Baker examined not only the composition of papers and inks, but also assessed the potential age of paper, leather and wood. This is something she was trained to do, deals regularly with, presented multiple lectures all over the world and published papers about. In a way, this is identical to how the conservators and restorers examine and assess book bindings. As a professional book/binding restorer, she dated the paper/wood/leather complexes as compatible with mid 19th century or earlier and definitely older than 20th century. She maintained this conclusion even without taking the numbers 1854 and 1840 into account. Simply by the state of the materials. And she had the advantage of actually handling these objects and doing her traditional tests on them. Should we accept the testimony of an expert witness or dismiss it? The labels had to be attached to the scabbards after the manufacture of these chooras and aged in parallel with them from there on. The estimates of their age as mid-19th century, therefore, give the absolutely latest date of their manufacture, and this is the reason why they may be even older. You are correct: this is the most unexpected and fascinating discussion we have had in a very long time. We are dealing here with dating an old weapon using a completely novel and hitherto never used approach. Fifty years ago the idea of using DNA samples as a method of finding an accused guilty or innocent would have been viewed as totally crazy:-) Last edited by ariel; 7th June 2015 at 06:23 AM.

7th June 2015, 08:43 AM	#7
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 197	for relaxation Hi , What is your opinion about this Choora ?? Kurt Attached Images

7th June 2015, 05:39 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

7th June 2015, 06:19 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks, Ward.

7th June 2015, 01:31 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting discussion, and I must say that Ariel has done his home work well :-). I am no specialist on chooras, but if I was asked I would have guessed 19th century. To skipp the discussion on the paper, ink and handwriting I would have suggested that the wood should be checked, but I see that this has been done, and the result was 19th century. So not only does the chooras seem to be 19th century, the scabbards as well, which is nice to know - especially for Ariel :-). Jens