Basket hilted swords

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th May 2015, 01:18 PM

Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see

http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/s...lectors-guide/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 7th May 2015, 01:37 PM

I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski.

yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC

Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands.
some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands.

the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500.

best
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2015, 05:32 PM

Excellent notes and great to see such good discussion along with such superb examples!
I very much agree on the 'rams horn' appellation applied by Dr, Mazansky, and while an interesting analogy, I have not been able to find other use of the term used on these Scottish basket hilts in nomenclature.

I looked through many references in Celtic and Pictish art and found no specific symbolic note to rams, however they did appear occasionally as a theme in drinking horns, quite appropriately .
The volute or paired discs were in a good number of representations but termed simply 'double discs', so ideas for deeper symbolism seem to have given way to more likely aesthetic instances.

As pointed out these type elements were well known on the Continent and into much earlier material culture, so placing any distinct connection would be unlikely.

So too is the problem of aligning distinct and chronological development of the basket or closed hilt, as fully developed hilt guards were developing in rapiers as well as in various form in the Continent as well as in England concurrently. These developments would seem to be understandable as armour began its obsolescence with advent of firearms, and combat techniques with swords changed.

Cathey, as always, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful examples of basket hilts!!! This thread is entirely addictive!

With the most recent one, the intriguing pierced heart motif appears, and I recall years ago trying to determine if any specific symbolism or purpose. I know this topic seems a bit fanciful, but it is believed that the Jacobites did use certain secret symbols in degree. It seems like it was Mazansky who, when asked, scoffed at the idea and claimed this was simply an easy to make style of decoration with two drilled holes and punched lines.

Have you or Rex or perhaps the Baron possibly formed ideas on this particular device in basket hilt motif? I know it was used as well on other material culture ( a Scottish chair I have).

E.B. Erickson · 8th May 2015, 10:51 AM

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th May 2015, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

Salaams E.B. Erickson, Please see http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2310...irginia-44160/ where there are 3 weapons discovered of which your illustration is one. The site is an old auction site 2011 therefor the items were probably sold 4 or 5 years back....

My apologies on the quote which I only meant I had applied from the website which had mentioned your name....rather than you having been the originator of the words I showed...

Excellent news that you are working on the lineage document.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

E.B. Erickson · 9th May 2015, 03:41 AM

Ibrahim,
Yes, that old Julia auction is where I found the sword. The other two items weren't surprising to find in an American colonial context, but that Germanic/Dutch basket was! I guess it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, because England and Europe had a lot of trade going on in the 1600s (when they weren't fighting each other!).

No need to apologize for the confusion about the quotation. Whoever said that is a much better writer than I am, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get the credit.

--ElJay

daggpil · 27th August 2018, 01:32 PM

Hello,

I have in my Collection a sword that is of British origin, a late relative to me brought this home from London in the mid 1960's.

Could anyone give me some information regarding the type and/or the presumed age and use?

Best regards/Ulrik Sjöberg, Sweden.

kronckew · 27th August 2018, 07:28 PM

See page one of this thread, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11394 post no. 6.

Looks like a good modern (Mid-'60's is modern, or recent, at best just at 'vintage'.) copy of the sword there from the mid 18c.

Personally, it looks new, much too clean, no wear, or patina & the blade mark is very crisp & looks almost laser cut.

Not my best area tho, I don't know if the British Scots regiments use this pattern again; if so they'd likely have a lot of other stamp marks on it. Nice sword tho. I like it.

Will M · 28th August 2018, 04:52 PM

I agree this sword has irregularities compared to originals. The pommel looks new, the grip wire has been flattened something not seen on originals.
The slotted hilt looks cut from flat stock, rounded where cut but flat sided.
Copies of swords have been made for centuries from the Victorian era to fill castles and onwards.
There are some fine copies being made in Europe and with a bit of aging appear quite authentic if you don't know what to look for and this has become less obvious.

7th May 2015, 01:37 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski. yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands. some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands. the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500. best Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 7th May 2015 at 05:41 PM.

8th May 2015, 10:51 AM	#4
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Ibrahim, That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore. I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper. One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with. Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo. Attached Images

27th August 2018, 01:32 PM	#7
daggpil Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 25	British Broadsword with basket hilt in brass Hello, I have in my Collection a sword that is of British origin, a late relative to me brought this home from London in the mid 1960's. Could anyone give me some information regarding the type and/or the presumed age and use? Best regards/Ulrik Sjöberg, Sweden. Attached Images

7th May 2015, 01:18 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/s...lectors-guide/ Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

7th May 2015, 05:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent notes and great to see such good discussion along with such superb examples! I very much agree on the 'rams horn' appellation applied by Dr, Mazansky, and while an interesting analogy, I have not been able to find other use of the term used on these Scottish basket hilts in nomenclature. I looked through many references in Celtic and Pictish art and found no specific symbolic note to rams, however they did appear occasionally as a theme in drinking horns, quite appropriately . The volute or paired discs were in a good number of representations but termed simply 'double discs', so ideas for deeper symbolism seem to have given way to more likely aesthetic instances. As pointed out these type elements were well known on the Continent and into much earlier material culture, so placing any distinct connection would be unlikely. So too is the problem of aligning distinct and chronological development of the basket or closed hilt, as fully developed hilt guards were developing in rapiers as well as in various form in the Continent as well as in England concurrently. These developments would seem to be understandable as armour began its obsolescence with advent of firearms, and combat techniques with swords changed. Cathey, as always, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful examples of basket hilts!!! This thread is entirely addictive! With the most recent one, the intriguing pierced heart motif appears, and I recall years ago trying to determine if any specific symbolism or purpose. I know this topic seems a bit fanciful, but it is believed that the Jacobites did use certain secret symbols in degree. It seems like it was Mazansky who, when asked, scoffed at the idea and claimed this was simply an easy to make style of decoration with two drilled holes and punched lines. Have you or Rex or perhaps the Baron possibly formed ideas on this particular device in basket hilt motif? I know it was used as well on other material culture ( a Scottish chair I have).

9th May 2015, 03:41 AM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Ibrahim, Yes, that old Julia auction is where I found the sword. The other two items weren't surprising to find in an American colonial context, but that Germanic/Dutch basket was! I guess it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, because England and Europe had a lot of trade going on in the 1600s (when they weren't fighting each other!). No need to apologize for the confusion about the quotation. Whoever said that is a much better writer than I am, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get the credit. --ElJay

27th August 2018, 07:28 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	See page one of this thread, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11394 post no. 6. Looks like a good modern (Mid-'60's is modern, or recent, at best just at 'vintage'.) copy of the sword there from the mid 18c. Personally, it looks new, much too clean, no wear, or patina & the blade mark is very crisp & looks almost laser cut. Not my best area tho, I don't know if the British Scots regiments use this pattern again; if so they'd likely have a lot of other stamp marks on it. Nice sword tho. I like it.

28th August 2018, 04:52 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I agree this sword has irregularities compared to originals. The pommel looks new, the grip wire has been flattened something not seen on originals. The slotted hilt looks cut from flat stock, rounded where cut but flat sided. Copies of swords have been made for centuries from the Victorian era to fill castles and onwards. There are some fine copies being made in Europe and with a bit of aging appear quite authentic if you don't know what to look for and this has become less obvious.