Basket hilted swords

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th May 2015, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean

This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,

‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600

Salaams Cornelistromp ...Thank you for an excellent reply and your illustration of the 2 hander with the horns at the guard. Despite the Mazansky reference I can imagine how this could be misleading and had even thought that the reason for the Bull Horns/ Rams Horns? on the Scottish/English Basket Hilt was tied to the Border Reivers since that is what they were stealing...cows and sheep....but alas that seems not to be the case. Thanks again..

I have just realised that E B Ericson is a leading light on the subject of Basket Hilt Swords and can be seen at My Armoury. com from where, in regard to the Border Reivers above, I Quote."

The Border Reivers, the shock troops of those untamed folk, struck at their neighbors without mercy—murdering them, stealing their stock and burning their homes. They were masters of their custom-bred mounts, traveling light and fast, creating chaos with medieval weapons, and exploiting their intimate knowledge of the land to undermine political authorities and elude the law. They were driven by greed, revenge, hardship and perhaps even bloodlust.

Ironically, in light of our emphasis on the sword, the Borderers themselves chose the lance as their principal weapon. According to one eyewitness, their skill with lance and horse was so great that they could ride into a stream and spear fish from horseback. But nine feet of wood and a foot of steel just don't have the romantic allure of the distinctive Borders basket-hilt.

The debate over the origins of the British and Continental basket-hilt swords continues to rage. Suffice it to say that opinions differ, and the least-strained theory is that the various basket styles of the era evolved more of less independently out of the universal recognition of the value of protecting the sword hand even when not wearing mail or plate gauntlets.

Pointing to lines of trade between Britain and the Continent doesn't answer the question of stylistic origins because ideas likely flowed in both directions. However, it must be noted that British basket-hilts of the type reviewed here look more like the German basket-hilts of the same era than the classic Scottish Highland baskets of later centuries. In both cultures, the bars of these early baskets are narrow and organic in form, often explicitly so, with long, vinelike quillons, and terminals and pommels shaped like leaves, nuts or berries. Perhaps these forms were the cutler's reference to the rustic, utilitarian baskets encountered in everyday life.

Whatever the inspiration, the long, recurved quillons identify the earliest British baskets, dating from approximately 1540 forward. These quillons seem out of place in the kit of the imminently practical Reivers, and in fact many surviving basket-hilts of this era appear to have lost their quillons by accidental or deliberate amputation. The large, hollow, globular pommel also is a distinctive feature of the 16th century British basket-hilt".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th May 2015, 01:18 PM

Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see

http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/s...lectors-guide/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 7th May 2015, 01:37 PM

I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski.

yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC

Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands.
some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands.

the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500.

best
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2015, 05:32 PM

Excellent notes and great to see such good discussion along with such superb examples!
I very much agree on the 'rams horn' appellation applied by Dr, Mazansky, and while an interesting analogy, I have not been able to find other use of the term used on these Scottish basket hilts in nomenclature.

I looked through many references in Celtic and Pictish art and found no specific symbolic note to rams, however they did appear occasionally as a theme in drinking horns, quite appropriately .
The volute or paired discs were in a good number of representations but termed simply 'double discs', so ideas for deeper symbolism seem to have given way to more likely aesthetic instances.

As pointed out these type elements were well known on the Continent and into much earlier material culture, so placing any distinct connection would be unlikely.

So too is the problem of aligning distinct and chronological development of the basket or closed hilt, as fully developed hilt guards were developing in rapiers as well as in various form in the Continent as well as in England concurrently. These developments would seem to be understandable as armour began its obsolescence with advent of firearms, and combat techniques with swords changed.

Cathey, as always, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful examples of basket hilts!!! This thread is entirely addictive!

With the most recent one, the intriguing pierced heart motif appears, and I recall years ago trying to determine if any specific symbolism or purpose. I know this topic seems a bit fanciful, but it is believed that the Jacobites did use certain secret symbols in degree. It seems like it was Mazansky who, when asked, scoffed at the idea and claimed this was simply an easy to make style of decoration with two drilled holes and punched lines.

Have you or Rex or perhaps the Baron possibly formed ideas on this particular device in basket hilt motif? I know it was used as well on other material culture ( a Scottish chair I have).

E.B. Erickson · 8th May 2015, 10:51 AM

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th May 2015, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Ibrahim,
That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore.

I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper.
One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with.

Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo.

Salaams E.B. Erickson, Please see http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2310...irginia-44160/ where there are 3 weapons discovered of which your illustration is one. The site is an old auction site 2011 therefor the items were probably sold 4 or 5 years back....

My apologies on the quote which I only meant I had applied from the website which had mentioned your name....rather than you having been the originator of the words I showed...

Excellent news that you are working on the lineage document.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

E.B. Erickson · 9th May 2015, 03:41 AM

Ibrahim,
Yes, that old Julia auction is where I found the sword. The other two items weren't surprising to find in an American colonial context, but that Germanic/Dutch basket was! I guess it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, because England and Europe had a lot of trade going on in the 1600s (when they weren't fighting each other!).

No need to apologize for the confusion about the quotation. Whoever said that is a much better writer than I am, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get the credit.

--ElJay

daggpil · 27th August 2018, 01:32 PM

Hello,

I have in my Collection a sword that is of British origin, a late relative to me brought this home from London in the mid 1960's.

Could anyone give me some information regarding the type and/or the presumed age and use?

Best regards/Ulrik Sjöberg, Sweden.

kronckew · 27th August 2018, 07:28 PM

See page one of this thread, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11394 post no. 6.

Looks like a good modern (Mid-'60's is modern, or recent, at best just at 'vintage'.) copy of the sword there from the mid 18c.

Personally, it looks new, much too clean, no wear, or patina & the blade mark is very crisp & looks almost laser cut.

Not my best area tho, I don't know if the British Scots regiments use this pattern again; if so they'd likely have a lot of other stamp marks on it. Nice sword tho. I like it.

7th May 2015, 01:37 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski. yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands. some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands. the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500. best Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 7th May 2015 at 05:41 PM.

8th May 2015, 10:51 AM	#5
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Ibrahim, That's not a statement of mine that you mentioned a few posts up the page, but I don't remember right now who said it! I guess I'll have to head over to MyArmoury and track it down. And anyway, I'm just a collector, and would hardly consider myself a leading light of baskethilt lore. I am, however, in total agreement with the idea that the various basket types developed independently of each other. This idea was also expressed by Jasper. One thing that I have been doing the last week or so is developing a visual lineage of the various basket types. I'll post it when I have a rough draft that I'm happy with. Regarding those baskets with the slotted elements, one turned up in Virginia, apparently from an early colonial site, but unfortunately the site itself and information about it is lost. See the attached photo. Attached Images

27th August 2018, 01:32 PM	#8
daggpil Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 25	British Broadsword with basket hilt in brass Hello, I have in my Collection a sword that is of British origin, a late relative to me brought this home from London in the mid 1960's. Could anyone give me some information regarding the type and/or the presumed age and use? Best regards/Ulrik Sjöberg, Sweden. Attached Images

7th May 2015, 01:18 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/s...lectors-guide/ Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

7th May 2015, 05:32 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent notes and great to see such good discussion along with such superb examples! I very much agree on the 'rams horn' appellation applied by Dr, Mazansky, and while an interesting analogy, I have not been able to find other use of the term used on these Scottish basket hilts in nomenclature. I looked through many references in Celtic and Pictish art and found no specific symbolic note to rams, however they did appear occasionally as a theme in drinking horns, quite appropriately . The volute or paired discs were in a good number of representations but termed simply 'double discs', so ideas for deeper symbolism seem to have given way to more likely aesthetic instances. As pointed out these type elements were well known on the Continent and into much earlier material culture, so placing any distinct connection would be unlikely. So too is the problem of aligning distinct and chronological development of the basket or closed hilt, as fully developed hilt guards were developing in rapiers as well as in various form in the Continent as well as in England concurrently. These developments would seem to be understandable as armour began its obsolescence with advent of firearms, and combat techniques with swords changed. Cathey, as always, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful examples of basket hilts!!! This thread is entirely addictive! With the most recent one, the intriguing pierced heart motif appears, and I recall years ago trying to determine if any specific symbolism or purpose. I know this topic seems a bit fanciful, but it is believed that the Jacobites did use certain secret symbols in degree. It seems like it was Mazansky who, when asked, scoffed at the idea and claimed this was simply an easy to make style of decoration with two drilled holes and punched lines. Have you or Rex or perhaps the Baron possibly formed ideas on this particular device in basket hilt motif? I know it was used as well on other material culture ( a Scottish chair I have).

9th May 2015, 03:41 AM	#7
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Ibrahim, Yes, that old Julia auction is where I found the sword. The other two items weren't surprising to find in an American colonial context, but that Germanic/Dutch basket was! I guess it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, because England and Europe had a lot of trade going on in the 1600s (when they weren't fighting each other!). No need to apologize for the confusion about the quotation. Whoever said that is a much better writer than I am, and I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get the credit. --ElJay

27th August 2018, 07:28 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	See page one of this thread, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11394 post no. 6. Looks like a good modern (Mid-'60's is modern, or recent, at best just at 'vintage'.) copy of the sword there from the mid 18c. Personally, it looks new, much too clean, no wear, or patina & the blade mark is very crisp & looks almost laser cut. Not my best area tho, I don't know if the British Scots regiments use this pattern again; if so they'd likely have a lot of other stamp marks on it. Nice sword tho. I like it.