Basket hilted swords

[E.B. Erickson]

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

[cornelistromp]

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.


the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

[Cathey]

Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this.

The sword I refer to is:
Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt
Date: Pattern 1798
Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment
Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches)
Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches)
Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R?

Description
1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire.

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay and Cornelistromp

These Dutch baskets are so intricate in design, I had no idea such variety existed and can honestly say I have never had the pleasure of seeing one in the flesh. Any idea what the name of the book is, the pictures in it look like a valuable reference source.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Corneliustromp,
Thanks for the discussion and additional photos of the Dutch basket. Would I be correct in assuming that these are a fairly rare sword?

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

Cathey,
On your 1798 basket, can you make out the letters that have been punched over?

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay

We am sitting in a apartment in Melbourne having just come back from an auction much poorer than when we arrived. Picked up a nice basket hilt which I will post latter.

Now I can't make out the punch marks but have attached some close up pictures. When I get back to Adelaide I will get out a magnifying glass and see if I can make them out.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.


the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Fascinating brass basket hilt! The blade (as always) is intriguing, especially being a 'Drury' blade. Apparently Drury in 1771 joined in business with Nathaniel Jeffries, and these two men were both producers of blades found on British military swords in this time. Jeffries was succeeded by Drury by 1772, and the Drury blades are the most commonly seen of the two as I understand.

By 1777, Drury was bankrupt but continued in business and supplying until 1786 (he died in 1804). According to Darling ("Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784", 1988, p.17) he was supplying until 1784, as noted 'the year privates in Highland regiments ceased wearing swords'.

As Darling notes on p.18 (op.cit.) "...to whom were these Drury signed swords issued? Between 1775 and 1779 eight Highland regiments, one of two battalions, were raised, one of which, the Royal Highland Emigrants, was levied in Canada".

Is it possible that these curious markings at the forte near blade back might have something to do with such issuance? perhaps 'E C' might represent Emigrants Canada? with the obscured word unclear (this seems unusual to see anything stamped in this location on blade....obviously the maker was Drury).

Whatever the case, these basket hilts seem to have been of steel, while later hilts (c.1790s) for Scottish units were often gilt brass (copper). The configuration of plates and bars in the guard correspond to cavalry hilts c.1750 in form (obviously steel, Mazansky, 2005, p.141) but are seen in similar examples in the same reference (p.130-132) which are brass with some having similar pommel (type IV, Mazansky) a low cone with cross strap design.

The 1798 pattern seems unclear (Robson, p.124, "Swords of the British Army", 1975), but he notes compelling references suggesting they were indeed brass. Most of the examples in Mazansky seem to be to grenadier or fusilier units of Scottish regiments, with the components very similar.

Could this earlier blade have been joined with one of the brass hilts in refurbishing for Napoleonic campaigns? If the Highland unit of 'Emigrant Canada' was levied there, it obviously was not stationed there. Still, would the arms issued be somehow kept separately accountable in inventory context?

This is one of the great fascinations of studying these swords...what stories of their working lives can be revealed as we look into the clues?

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean
This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,


‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600

[Jim McDougall]

I think the reference to the similarity between these volute scrolls in the lower guard of the Dutch hilt and many of the devices between guard plates in the Scottish basket hilts was in accord with comparing possible influences.

Much of the discussion on Scottish basket hilts and their origins and development has always been focused on such comparisons from the early arms writers into present, and the basis for considerable debate. These kinds of questions are much in line with the type of analysis attended to in the excellent work by the late Claude Blair.

Quite honestly, some years ago I had seen the integral 'fluer de lis' elements in these hilts and assumed possible connections to France considering the strong connections between the Stuarts and them.
When the Dr. Mazansky presented his book I was surprised to see these elements actually representing 'rams horns', which I would presume possibly could derive from early Celtic symbolism.

On the other hand, and as has been often maintained, many of the elements may have likely and simply been aesthetic designs which lent well to the basic structure of the closed basket guard. While this is often hard to fathom given the profound symbolism often imbued covertly into sword decoration by the Highland Scots, it remains a distinctly probable circumstance.

Naturally, and has been well shown in the illustrations of other volute scrolls inherent in many Continental hilt forms, these devices have been around since virtually ancient times in art and material culture of many civilizations as they migrated and these diffused widely. If I recall correctly, these volute designs are even seen in remnants of prehistoric cultures.

Returning to the influences of hilt forms between countries, it does seem there were notable connections between Holland and England with sword fashion and elements in the 17th and 18th centuries. This is represented somewhat in "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) who includes a number of Dutch examples (a few French as well) and once again recalling the philosophical comment which emphasizes that the styles and forms of weaponry never have geographic boundaries.

[Cathey]

Here is another basket a bit of a hybrid between the early patterns and the emergence of pieced hearts’.

Scottish Basket Hilt
Nationality Scottish
Date C1680-1700
Overall Length 38 5/8” 98.1 cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 96.5 cm
Blade widest point 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point 4 3/8” 11.1 cm
Inside grip length 3 ½” 9 cm
Marks, etc. Appears to be 16th – 17th Century version of Passau Wolf Mark.

Description
Early Scottish Basket Hilt c1680
Stag horn grip, Low domed pommel, crude single heart shaped piercing to Outer shields and knuckle guards. Remnants of line decoration to outer shields. Crude terminal lobe to side guard’s un-pierced, forward guards but no wrist guard present. Broad sword blade with two short fullers at shoulder and early version of running wolf mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean
This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,


‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600

Salaams Cornelistromp ...Thank you for an excellent reply and your illustration of the 2 hander with the horns at the guard. Despite the Mazansky reference I can imagine how this could be misleading and had even thought that the reason for the Bull Horns/ Rams Horns? on the Scottish/English Basket Hilt was tied to the Border Reivers since that is what they were stealing...cows and sheep....but alas that seems not to be the case. Thanks again..

I have just realised that E B Ericson is a leading light on the subject of Basket Hilt Swords and can be seen at My Armoury. com from where, in regard to the Border Reivers above, I Quote."

The Border Reivers, the shock troops of those untamed folk, struck at their neighbors without mercy—murdering them, stealing their stock and burning their homes. They were masters of their custom-bred mounts, traveling light and fast, creating chaos with medieval weapons, and exploiting their intimate knowledge of the land to undermine political authorities and elude the law. They were driven by greed, revenge, hardship and perhaps even bloodlust.

Ironically, in light of our emphasis on the sword, the Borderers themselves chose the lance as their principal weapon. According to one eyewitness, their skill with lance and horse was so great that they could ride into a stream and spear fish from horseback. But nine feet of wood and a foot of steel just don't have the romantic allure of the distinctive Borders basket-hilt.

The debate over the origins of the British and Continental basket-hilt swords continues to rage. Suffice it to say that opinions differ, and the least-strained theory is that the various basket styles of the era evolved more of less independently out of the universal recognition of the value of protecting the sword hand even when not wearing mail or plate gauntlets.

Pointing to lines of trade between Britain and the Continent doesn't answer the question of stylistic origins because ideas likely flowed in both directions. However, it must be noted that British basket-hilts of the type reviewed here look more like the German basket-hilts of the same era than the classic Scottish Highland baskets of later centuries. In both cultures, the bars of these early baskets are narrow and organic in form, often explicitly so, with long, vinelike quillons, and terminals and pommels shaped like leaves, nuts or berries. Perhaps these forms were the cutler's reference to the rustic, utilitarian baskets encountered in everyday life.

Whatever the inspiration, the long, recurved quillons identify the earliest British baskets, dating from approximately 1540 forward. These quillons seem out of place in the kit of the imminently practical Reivers, and in fact many surviving basket-hilts of this era appear to have lost their quillons by accidental or deliberate amputation. The large, hollow, globular pommel also is a distinctive feature of the 16th century British basket-hilt".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...I place here a good site with an excellent description for beginners like myself which gives a nicely constructed and balanced view of the Basket Hilt swords in general...please see

http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/s...lectors-guide/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

I believe the horns did only occur in the imagination of Dr. Mazanski.

yes I also think that the basket hilt has developed separate and away from each other and take into consideration that the European type,the developed Katzbalger with ribbon-basket, began somewhat earlier as the English and Scottish in the second quarter of the 16thC


Of the basket type with the slots in the bars, there are found several pieces in the Netherlands.
some complete as swords and others Only the baskets!!!! so without pommel grip and blade. This may be an indication that this type of basket was manufactured in the Netherlands.

the typical globular hollow pommel with brass bands as seen at early English basket hilts came already as solid execution on German and Swiss swords around 1500.

best
Jasper

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

From the National Museum Copenhagen Denmark, Danish, Dutch , north European ?
Kind regards
Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter.

This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph.

Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter
Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey
Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm
Blade length: 33” 84 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm
Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

Description
Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

General Remarks
No Horseman’s ring in the guard

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Another outstanding sword!

Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810.

I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty.

It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago.
Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown.

One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt.

I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well.
As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's.

It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.

[Cathey]

Hi Jim

Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows:
Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St
Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645
Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend
Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St
Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St
Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane
Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St
Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory
Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St
Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend
Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St

There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck.
It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early.

With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition.

It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought.

I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates.
It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual.

Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please!

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards
Anthony D. Darling
The two swords illustrated and discussed in this
paper are of particular importance to students and
collectors of 18th century British military edged
weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation
patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass
hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel
hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary
pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use
as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration
resembles its infantry counterpart so closely,
we can safely assume that both swords date from this
period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as
brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted
man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords
were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last
resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry
privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers
in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry
regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during
the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4
Infantry Sword
This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved,
single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller.
The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running
fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham
sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...49_Darling.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.