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26th April 2015, 02:59 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5
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Hi,
Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part. Mark |
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27th April 2015, 01:33 AM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,585
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Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts.
As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'. What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw). Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times. It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'. Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc. It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note. Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number. On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution. These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion. |
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29th April 2015, 02:34 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 61
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First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!
Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description. |
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29th April 2015, 03:14 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,063
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yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine. the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil. they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection. I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts. see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811 best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th April 2015 at 06:37 PM. |
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30th April 2015, 05:20 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Brass hilted Basket Hilt Backsword
Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this.
The sword I refer to is: Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt Date: Pattern 1798 Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches) Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches) Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches) Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches) Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R? Description 1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. General Remarks The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time. Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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30th April 2015, 05:27 AM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Dutch Baskets
Hi Eljay and Cornelistromp
These Dutch baskets are so intricate in design, I had no idea such variety existed and can honestly say I have never had the pleasure of seeing one in the flesh. Any idea what the name of the book is, the pictures in it look like a valuable reference source. Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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1st May 2015, 12:20 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 61
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Corneliustromp,
Thanks for the discussion and additional photos of the Dutch basket. Would I be correct in assuming that these are a fairly rare sword? --ElJay |
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3rd May 2015, 08:00 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. 
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4th May 2015, 04:03 AM
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#9 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,585
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Fascinating brass basket hilt! The blade (as always) is intriguing, especially being a 'Drury' blade. Apparently Drury in 1771 joined in business with Nathaniel Jeffries, and these two men were both producers of blades found on British military swords in this time. Jeffries was succeeded by Drury by 1772, and the Drury blades are the most commonly seen of the two as I understand.
By 1777, Drury was bankrupt but continued in business and supplying until 1786 (he died in 1804). According to Darling ("Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784", 1988, p.17) he was supplying until 1784, as noted 'the year privates in Highland regiments ceased wearing swords'. As Darling notes on p.18 (op.cit.) "...to whom were these Drury signed swords issued? Between 1775 and 1779 eight Highland regiments, one of two battalions, were raised, one of which, the Royal Highland Emigrants, was levied in Canada". Is it possible that these curious markings at the forte near blade back might have something to do with such issuance? perhaps 'E C' might represent Emigrants Canada? with the obscured word unclear (this seems unusual to see anything stamped in this location on blade....obviously the maker was Drury). Whatever the case, these basket hilts seem to have been of steel, while later hilts (c.1790s) for Scottish units were often gilt brass (copper). The configuration of plates and bars in the guard correspond to cavalry hilts c.1750 in form (obviously steel, Mazansky, 2005, p.141) but are seen in similar examples in the same reference (p.130-132) which are brass with some having similar pommel (type IV, Mazansky) a low cone with cross strap design. The 1798 pattern seems unclear (Robson, p.124, "Swords of the British Army", 1975), but he notes compelling references suggesting they were indeed brass. Most of the examples in Mazansky seem to be to grenadier or fusilier units of Scottish regiments, with the components very similar. Could this earlier blade have been joined with one of the brass hilts in refurbishing for Napoleonic campaigns? If the Highland unit of 'Emigrant Canada' was levied there, it obviously was not stationed there. Still, would the arms issued be somehow kept separately accountable in inventory context? This is one of the great fascinations of studying these swords...what stories of their working lives can be revealed as we look into the clues? |
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4th May 2015, 12:12 PM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
I have absolutely no idea what you mean  This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish. also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland. with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa! F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe. attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year. best, ‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys 42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide Provenance The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50 JWHA Inv. No. 177 Estimate: 400-600 Last edited by cornelistromp; 5th May 2015 at 07:11 AM. |
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5th May 2015, 05:10 PM
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#11 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,585
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I think the reference to the similarity between these volute scrolls in the lower guard of the Dutch hilt and many of the devices between guard plates in the Scottish basket hilts was in accord with comparing possible influences.
Much of the discussion on Scottish basket hilts and their origins and development has always been focused on such comparisons from the early arms writers into present, and the basis for considerable debate. These kinds of questions are much in line with the type of analysis attended to in the excellent work by the late Claude Blair. Quite honestly, some years ago I had seen the integral 'fluer de lis' elements in these hilts and assumed possible connections to France considering the strong connections between the Stuarts and them. When the Dr. Mazansky presented his book I was surprised to see these elements actually representing 'rams horns', which I would presume possibly could derive from early Celtic symbolism. On the other hand, and as has been often maintained, many of the elements may have likely and simply been aesthetic designs which lent well to the basic structure of the closed basket guard. While this is often hard to fathom given the profound symbolism often imbued covertly into sword decoration by the Highland Scots, it remains a distinctly probable circumstance. Naturally, and has been well shown in the illustrations of other volute scrolls inherent in many Continental hilt forms, these devices have been around since virtually ancient times in art and material culture of many civilizations as they migrated and these diffused widely. If I recall correctly, these volute designs are even seen in remnants of prehistoric cultures. Returning to the influences of hilt forms between countries, it does seem there were notable connections between Holland and England with sword fashion and elements in the 17th and 18th centuries. This is represented somewhat in "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) who includes a number of Dutch examples (a few French as well) and once again recalling the philosophical comment which emphasizes that the styles and forms of weaponry never have geographic boundaries. |
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7th May 2015, 08:12 AM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Cornelistromp ...Thank you for an excellent reply and your illustration of the 2 hander with the horns at the guard. Despite the Mazansky reference I can imagine how this could be misleading and had even thought that the reason for the Bull Horns/ Rams Horns? on the Scottish/English Basket Hilt was tied to the Border Reivers since that is what they were stealing...cows and sheep....but alas that seems not to be the case. Thanks again.. I have just realised that E B Ericson is a leading light on the subject of Basket Hilt Swords and can be seen at My Armoury. com from where, in regard to the Border Reivers above, I Quote." The Border Reivers, the shock troops of those untamed folk, struck at their neighbors without mercy—murdering them, stealing their stock and burning their homes. They were masters of their custom-bred mounts, traveling light and fast, creating chaos with medieval weapons, and exploiting their intimate knowledge of the land to undermine political authorities and elude the law. They were driven by greed, revenge, hardship and perhaps even bloodlust. Ironically, in light of our emphasis on the sword, the Borderers themselves chose the lance as their principal weapon. According to one eyewitness, their skill with lance and horse was so great that they could ride into a stream and spear fish from horseback. But nine feet of wood and a foot of steel just don't have the romantic allure of the distinctive Borders basket-hilt. The debate over the origins of the British and Continental basket-hilt swords continues to rage. Suffice it to say that opinions differ, and the least-strained theory is that the various basket styles of the era evolved more of less independently out of the universal recognition of the value of protecting the sword hand even when not wearing mail or plate gauntlets. Pointing to lines of trade between Britain and the Continent doesn't answer the question of stylistic origins because ideas likely flowed in both directions. However, it must be noted that British basket-hilts of the type reviewed here look more like the German basket-hilts of the same era than the classic Scottish Highland baskets of later centuries. In both cultures, the bars of these early baskets are narrow and organic in form, often explicitly so, with long, vinelike quillons, and terminals and pommels shaped like leaves, nuts or berries. Perhaps these forms were the cutler's reference to the rustic, utilitarian baskets encountered in everyday life. Whatever the inspiration, the long, recurved quillons identify the earliest British baskets, dating from approximately 1540 forward. These quillons seem out of place in the kit of the imminently practical Reivers, and in fact many surviving basket-hilts of this era appear to have lost their quillons by accidental or deliberate amputation. The large, hollow, globular pommel also is a distinctive feature of the 16th century British basket-hilt".Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th May 2015 at 11:55 AM. |
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9th May 2015, 12:49 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 435
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Quote:
Kind regards Ulfberth |
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10th May 2015, 09:26 AM
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#14 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Hi Guys
As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter. This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph. Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm Blade length: 33” 84 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. Description Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. General Remarks No Horseman’s ring in the guard References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15 Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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11th May 2015, 01:14 AM
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#15 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,585
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Another outstanding sword!
Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810. I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty. It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago. Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown. One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt. I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well. As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's. It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago. |
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11th May 2015, 04:21 AM
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#16 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Harveys
Hi Jim
Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows: Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645 Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either. Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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