Islamic/Eastern European Crossguard

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2005, 12:35 AM

Hi Brian,
Good to be back!! Thank you!
I am noticing in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" a number of the swords ancestors of the schiavona from 1480-90 (plates 150-162) most of which have distinct langets descending from the crossguard center. Some of these are rudimentary while others are of substantial length and suggest practical application rather than simply aesthetic application. The source for the influence of many weapons is found in early swords of Italy, since Venice was the profound superpower of trade in those times. The diffusion of these forms certainly entered the Eastern European sphere, although I am not suggesting this may have been the only possibility for the development of the langet.
Many early falchions seem to have had a pronounced central block on the crossguard, and it would seem that an aesthetically pleasing design may have evolved incorporating an interpretation of the quatrefoil, thus the addition of the upper langet. It seems that geometric harmony often found in architecture in many cases corresponds to the structure found in sword hilts, just as the stupa presumably corresponds to the domes on tulwar hilts.

Just observation for thought, but seemed plausible enough for further research.

All the best,
Jim

wolviex · 15th December 2005, 01:49 PM

Hello Brian!

First of all my apologies I wasn't here from the beginning as you expected, but somehow I didn't pay attention to this thread, and I've just missed it

. Now seeing how many petitions were send to me, I feel honor bound to answer, but I'm afraid that knowledge and resources aren't always with willingness in pair.

It's really hard to find such hilts earlier than in 17th century, when they were spread around the world through Persia to Poland and to other countries. I always had the feeling (and maybe I'm wrong!) that dating of eastern/islamic objects is always problematic and very often not precisely, because of very preservative forms which existed through the centuries. Those beautiful sabres dated on 16th century seems to be later too (anyway the hilts seems to be later), and (knowing Museum reality) very often some objects are attributed to persons (like Sultans, Kings, noblemens, heroes) only because of the tradition. Then you can read "16th" or "17th century" even if curators are sure they're later. It only complicates even obvious facts, and is making the researches harder.

Here are two pictures. I'm not quite sure this is what you're looking for, but lets make another try in this thread. First picture is more important, because it refers to sabre from 13th century (from book: David Nicolle, Early Medieval Islamic Arms and Armour, Madrid 1973). The exact sabre is brighter. Second picture is from catalogue Orez Perski (Persian Arms and armour) by A. R. Chodynski, and is showing hilts of Persian sabres through the ages (classification made by Lech Kobylinski).
Hope it will help somehow

Regards
Michal

15th December 2005, 01:49 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello Brian! First of all my apologies I wasn't here from the beginning as you expected, but somehow I didn't pay attention to this thread, and I've just missed it . Now seeing how many petitions were send to me, I feel honor bound to answer, but I'm afraid that knowledge and resources aren't always with willingness in pair. It's really hard to find such hilts earlier than in 17th century, when they were spread around the world through Persia to Poland and to other countries. I always had the feeling (and maybe I'm wrong!) that dating of eastern/islamic objects is always problematic and very often not precisely, because of very preservative forms which existed through the centuries. Those beautiful sabres dated on 16th century seems to be later too (anyway the hilts seems to be later), and (knowing Museum reality) very often some objects are attributed to persons (like Sultans, Kings, noblemens, heroes) only because of the tradition. Then you can read "16th" or "17th century" even if curators are sure they're later. It only complicates even obvious facts, and is making the researches harder. Here are two pictures. I'm not quite sure this is what you're looking for, but lets make another try in this thread. First picture is more important, because it refers to sabre from 13th century (from book: David Nicolle, Early Medieval Islamic Arms and Armour, Madrid 1973). The exact sabre is brighter. Second picture is from catalogue Orez Perski (Persian Arms and armour) by A. R. Chodynski, and is showing hilts of Persian sabres through the ages (classification made by Lech Kobylinski). Hope it will help somehow Regards Michal Attached Images

14th December 2005, 12:35 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Brian, Good to be back!! Thank you! I am noticing in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" a number of the swords ancestors of the schiavona from 1480-90 (plates 150-162) most of which have distinct langets descending from the crossguard center. Some of these are rudimentary while others are of substantial length and suggest practical application rather than simply aesthetic application. The source for the influence of many weapons is found in early swords of Italy, since Venice was the profound superpower of trade in those times. The diffusion of these forms certainly entered the Eastern European sphere, although I am not suggesting this may have been the only possibility for the development of the langet. Many early falchions seem to have had a pronounced central block on the crossguard, and it would seem that an aesthetically pleasing design may have evolved incorporating an interpretation of the quatrefoil, thus the addition of the upper langet. It seems that geometric harmony often found in architecture in many cases corresponds to the structure found in sword hilts, just as the stupa presumably corresponds to the domes on tulwar hilts. Just observation for thought, but seemed plausible enough for further research. All the best, Jim