Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

[kronckew]

form follows function.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Hi Jasper, agreed, however the presence of these stamped paired moons seems to be not particularly common in European mounts?

[cornelistromp]

you do not see them often, but I know several European blades with a double moon in the middle of the blade with multiple Fullers.
but also blades with only Fullers without any marks.
I believe that the double moon has its origins in Europe, Toledo or Solingen somewhere in the 16th century

best,
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Actually the point has not been to draw any connection in particular to African kaskaras, but more to determine the presence of paired crescent moons with faces in European context. It seems fairly well agreed that these moons were indeed used as marking devices , even into earlier medieval times as per Oakeshott along with numerous others (I do not believe the addition of 'faces' came until later).
Apparantly the Espaderos del Rey in Spain used variations of the faced moon (Briggs, 1965; Mann, 1962, others) however they were singular and often with other devices usually. I would agree that the 16th century in the centers noted by Jasper would probably have been where these paired moons began.
It is my opinion that the use of 'multiples' such as the konigskopf (kings head) at the forte in Solingen, may have influenced or been associated with same with the moons on the swords Ulfberth posted using said configuration.

The purpose of these duplicated images is unclear, just as the use of the paired moons on the blade center near fullers remains......but however rare, it seems that Europe was the source of origin.

The unfortunate fear of incorporating 'ethnographic' medium into a discussion on European blades was the cause for unnecessary concern in the 'basket hilt' thread, and the inclusion of the kaskara instances were pertinent in recognition of the origin and period of the moons in Europe in rather a symbiotic sense. I think Briggs in his key 1965 article on the use of European blades in Tuareg edged weapons is a most dynamic illustration of that situation.

[peserey]

There are a Shasha of my family. I think the solingen it is. far as I know in my family 200 years. What do you think about this?

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, peserey .
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

[peserey]

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, peserey .
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

Thank you . yes I am also very curious.

[Jim McDougall]

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

[peserey]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

Thank you. We have our family migrated from the Caucasus in the years 1780-1790. this sword came along with them.