Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

ulfberth · 16th April 2015, 08:56 AM

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Iain · 16th April 2015, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles tha kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Not seeing an image.

ulfberth · 16th April 2015, 11:56 AM

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2015, 03:29 PM

Ulfberth, thank you so much for your ongoing support in this discussion and for adding such valuable examples. These are excellent in our look into the similarities/differences in the use of crescent moons in Solingen, followed in other cultural spheres.

It would seem that in North Africa, the talismanic and magical imbuements of these faced crescent moons was well integrated into the symbolisms of tribal folk religions. That coupled with the special attention given by traders to these marks as indicators of high quality blades seem rather a 'shoe in' for incorporating them into subsequent native versions of the blades.

In this outstanding schiavona example, the blade is indeed central triple fuller and the moons in the familiar positions below the outside fullers.
It has long been clear that blades for schiavona were often supplied to North Italian makers in instances from Solingen.
While the competition between major centers in Italy, Germany and Styria was well established, in my opinion, it seems unlikely that Solingen blades would have been required in Italy as early as the date of this hilt. Naturally if the sword was in use outside its original sphere, and subsequently refurbished during its working life (often considerably long), then the use of a Solingen blade as replacement seems understandable.

This seems further support for these types of blades being produced by various smiths in Solingen in the 18th century, probably earlier as well, to provide blades to fulfill these kinds of requirements.....obviously in Scotland and other centers including Italian oriented domiciles.

As I have found in reviewing many old notes, these moons, like other often used devices, were not necessarily confined to a particular maker, especially the most prominent families of them. These were probably adopted by producers outside those within Solingen perimeters and provided as a kind of 'after market' type commodity, with such marks alluding to the quality of more renowned blades without the obvious copy of established makers marks.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2015, 03:38 PM

I wanted to note that the excellent example of court sword posted by Norman in #14 on its blade has the blade motif, using these kinds of magic/occult motif in what is often termed the 'Caissignard' style, which originated or was typical in Nantes, France.

cornelistromp · 16th April 2015, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

kronckew · 16th April 2015, 07:18 PM

form follows function.

Iain · 17th April 2015, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Hi Jasper, agreed, however the presence of these stamped paired moons seems to be not particularly common in European mounts?

cornelistromp · 17th April 2015, 08:40 AM

you do not see them often, but I know several European blades with a double moon in the middle of the blade with multiple Fullers.
but also blades with only Fullers without any marks.
I believe that the double moon has its origins in Europe, Toledo or Solingen somewhere in the 16th century

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Actually the point has not been to draw any connection in particular to African kaskaras, but more to determine the presence of paired crescent moons with faces in European context. It seems fairly well agreed that these moons were indeed used as marking devices , even into earlier medieval times as per Oakeshott along with numerous others (I do not believe the addition of 'faces' came until later).
Apparantly the Espaderos del Rey in Spain used variations of the faced moon (Briggs, 1965; Mann, 1962, others) however they were singular and often with other devices usually. I would agree that the 16th century in the centers noted by Jasper would probably have been where these paired moons began.
It is my opinion that the use of 'multiples' such as the konigskopf (kings head) at the forte in Solingen, may have influenced or been associated with same with the moons on the swords Ulfberth posted using said configuration.

The purpose of these duplicated images is unclear, just as the use of the paired moons on the blade center near fullers remains......but however rare, it seems that Europe was the source of origin.

The unfortunate fear of incorporating 'ethnographic' medium into a discussion on European blades was the cause for unnecessary concern in the 'basket hilt' thread, and the inclusion of the kaskara instances were pertinent in recognition of the origin and period of the moons in Europe in rather a symbiotic sense. I think Briggs in his key 1965 article on the use of European blades in Tuareg edged weapons is a most dynamic illustration of that situation.

peserey · 21st April 2015, 08:10 PM

There are a Shasha of my family. I think the solingen it is. far as I know in my family 200 years. What do you think about this?

fernando · 22nd April 2015, 07:58 PM

Welcome to the forum, peserey

.
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

peserey · 22nd April 2015, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, peserey

.
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

Thank you . yes I am also very curious.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2015, 04:25 AM

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

16th April 2015, 11:56 AM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Attached Images

21st April 2015, 08:10 PM	#11
peserey Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4	There are a Shasha of my family. I think the solingen it is. far as I know in my family 200 years. What do you think about this? Attached Images

16th April 2015, 08:56 AM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi all, I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona. Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ? Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara. kind regards Ulfberth Last edited by ulfberth; 16th April 2015 at 11:57 AM.

16th April 2015, 03:29 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ulfberth, thank you so much for your ongoing support in this discussion and for adding such valuable examples. These are excellent in our look into the similarities/differences in the use of crescent moons in Solingen, followed in other cultural spheres. It would seem that in North Africa, the talismanic and magical imbuements of these faced crescent moons was well integrated into the symbolisms of tribal folk religions. That coupled with the special attention given by traders to these marks as indicators of high quality blades seem rather a 'shoe in' for incorporating them into subsequent native versions of the blades. In this outstanding schiavona example, the blade is indeed central triple fuller and the moons in the familiar positions below the outside fullers. It has long been clear that blades for schiavona were often supplied to North Italian makers in instances from Solingen. While the competition between major centers in Italy, Germany and Styria was well established, in my opinion, it seems unlikely that Solingen blades would have been required in Italy as early as the date of this hilt. Naturally if the sword was in use outside its original sphere, and subsequently refurbished during its working life (often considerably long), then the use of a Solingen blade as replacement seems understandable. This seems further support for these types of blades being produced by various smiths in Solingen in the 18th century, probably earlier as well, to provide blades to fulfill these kinds of requirements.....obviously in Scotland and other centers including Italian oriented domiciles. As I have found in reviewing many old notes, these moons, like other often used devices, were not necessarily confined to a particular maker, especially the most prominent families of them. These were probably adopted by producers outside those within Solingen perimeters and provided as a kind of 'after market' type commodity, with such marks alluding to the quality of more renowned blades without the obvious copy of established makers marks.

16th April 2015, 03:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I wanted to note that the excellent example of court sword posted by Norman in #14 on its blade has the blade motif, using these kinds of magic/occult motif in what is often termed the 'Caissignard' style, which originated or was typical in Nantes, France.

16th April 2015, 07:18 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	form follows function.

17th April 2015, 08:40 AM	#9
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	you do not see them often, but I know several European blades with a double moon in the middle of the blade with multiple Fullers. but also blades with only Fullers without any marks. I believe that the double moon has its origins in Europe, Toledo or Solingen somewhere in the 16th century best, jasper

22nd April 2015, 07:58 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, peserey . Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks. It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

27th April 2015, 04:25 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family. This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars. While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.