Basket hilted swords

ulfberth · 31st March 2015, 07:58 PM

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 31st March 2015, 08:02 PM

better format this time

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2015, 02:31 AM

Thank you Jasper, and Ibrahiim and Ulfberth thank you so very much for the kind words!
These swords and the topics of trade blades, markings and their incorporation into many forms of ethnographic swords brings back many years of memories in research. Lee, the anecdote you share here of course brings back wonderful memories as well, and well illustrates how the conundrum of trade blades and their use in so many forms through many generations.

The term conundrum applies as these blades often took on new identities as they were refurbished into various mounts though their long and often quite eventful lives. While it is often tempting to regard blades in seemingly incongruent context as fakes or contrivances, in ethnographic circumstances most often 'recycling' reached elaborate dimensions, and these assembled pieces were honest 'working' weapons.

The very reason this forum, the European Armoury ,was formed as an extension to the Ethnographic Forum was to address the need to better understand European and other blade sources which constantly were present in ethnographic contexts. Very often these somewhat separate fields became emphatically combined.

In the case of this thread and the fascinating basket hilt topic, the digression to blades as present of some of these basket hilts is often key to proper identification and assessment of examples. This is the case with blades often found in kaskara as discussed, and occasionally there are other anomalies which must be evaluated in the same manner.

Getting back to the main topic, I would like to note that much as Lee has described in his anecdote, though the blade discussed seems to be a later example of course than this very early hilt, there can be other reasons for its presence in context. During the British Raj in India there seems to have been instances of examples of quite early swords being proudly worn by Indian officers and ranking individuals in native regiments. I can recall a photo for example of a ranking Indian officer c. 1890s holding an 18th century Scottish basket hilt. It seems this was not a singular case, and while admittedly tenous, I include the scenario only as observation for consideration.
There were a number of notable Scottish and Irish regiments in India in these times, and the idea of their officers having ancestral swords of considerable vintage does not seem unreasonable.

Incidentally, I have owned for many years, an Indian pata with very old gauntlet hilt......its blade, as pointed out to me in later years was distinctly a kaskara blade with the characteristic triple central fullers and astral themed motif much as seen illustrated on examples in Briggs.

cornelistromp · 1st April 2015, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

ulfberth · 1st April 2015, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,

the blade looks identical in shape like the one in your pictures, its 4,5 cm wide at the crossguard and 92 cm long, the inlay in the middle is a bit different and it is definitely of hexagonal hollow shape.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

E.B. Erickson · 2nd April 2015, 12:05 PM

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd April 2015, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

Salaams Eljay, Sir, I am a beginner to the world of this type of hilt however I am interested in the Irish Basket Hilt and where such hilts were manufactured... Am I right in thinking that this is only a terminology and that there was no actual Irish Basket but that the Scottish Basket was simply sometimes referred to as Irish. (depending on how much Drambuii was consumed)

I am especially interested in the Shotley Bridge Swordmaker and wondered if they made a lot of Baskets for remounts and or for blades from there... I note the running Fox and SH on an earlier post related to the Shotley maker.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 3rd April 2015, 02:17 AM

Hi Eljay and welcome Ibrahiim

Eljay you are correct, when it comes to hilt construction, actually there has been one posted on this site in the past. However, it is the pommel that sets the so called Irish hilt apart and I am, yet to find an example complete with this pommel and a different blade. Although like everything there is sure to be one out there somewhere. I have attached a picture of the previous sword posted on this forum, sadly can’t see the blade so I hope Mark Deyer who posted this sword originally in July 2013 will share with us a picture of the blade.

When I refer to the pommel you will note that both the example you posted and Mark’s have the typical English bun pommel. The swords reputedly with an Irish connection have a more Scottish style of pommel, quite distinctive. It is this combination that I am yet to find with a different blade.

I was also thinking about our tendency to refer to many early swords as being composite in a negative light. In reality with Germany, Italy and Spain being famous for their production of blades particularly from circa 1500-1700, most extremely original swords would fit in the composite category. For example almost all Scottish basket hilts had imported blades, the Scott’s made great hilts but appear to have had little appetite for making blades when you could order excellent quality from Germany or simply take one off a dead Englishman and have it re-hilted.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 3rd April 2015, 02:49 AM

With the very early baskets there is certainly been some research to suggest that origins between Scottish, Irish and English are very blurred. There is a particularly good article written on the Sword hilts of the Border Reivers which I will attach, not sure how well it will come up in Jpeg.

When it comes to Shotley bridge this is an interesting area and there are two small books available that deal specifically with Shotley Bridge. They are:
BYGATE, John G The Hollow Blade - The german swordmakers of shotley bridge SC 74 pp.
RICHARDSON, David The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge, PB Northern History Booklet No: 37, 67pp.

Welcome to a fascinating area of sword history. The basket hilt has a certain amount of romance attached to it, but the variety and the fact that examples can also be attributed to Europe make it particularly interesting area of study. If only swords could talk we would know so much more.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex.

31st March 2015, 07:58 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 419	Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords ! And Jim it so nice to read you again !! Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century. Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

31st March 2015, 08:02 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 419	better format this time Attached Images

1st April 2015, 02:31 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Thank you Jasper, and Ibrahiim and Ulfberth thank you so very much for the kind words! These swords and the topics of trade blades, markings and their incorporation into many forms of ethnographic swords brings back many years of memories in research. Lee, the anecdote you share here of course brings back wonderful memories as well, and well illustrates how the conundrum of trade blades and their use in so many forms through many generations. The term conundrum applies as these blades often took on new identities as they were refurbished into various mounts though their long and often quite eventful lives. While it is often tempting to regard blades in seemingly incongruent context as fakes or contrivances, in ethnographic circumstances most often 'recycling' reached elaborate dimensions, and these assembled pieces were honest 'working' weapons. The very reason this forum, the European Armoury ,was formed as an extension to the Ethnographic Forum was to address the need to better understand European and other blade sources which constantly were present in ethnographic contexts. Very often these somewhat separate fields became emphatically combined. In the case of this thread and the fascinating basket hilt topic, the digression to blades as present of some of these basket hilts is often key to proper identification and assessment of examples. This is the case with blades often found in kaskara as discussed, and occasionally there are other anomalies which must be evaluated in the same manner. Getting back to the main topic, I would like to note that much as Lee has described in his anecdote, though the blade discussed seems to be a later example of course than this very early hilt, there can be other reasons for its presence in context. During the British Raj in India there seems to have been instances of examples of quite early swords being proudly worn by Indian officers and ranking individuals in native regiments. I can recall a photo for example of a ranking Indian officer c. 1890s holding an 18th century Scottish basket hilt. It seems this was not a singular case, and while admittedly tenous, I include the scenario only as observation for consideration. There were a number of notable Scottish and Irish regiments in India in these times, and the idea of their officers having ancestral swords of considerable vintage does not seem unreasonable. Incidentally, I have owned for many years, an Indian pata with very old gauntlet hilt......its blade, as pointed out to me in later years was distinctly a kaskara blade with the characteristic triple central fullers and astral themed motif much as seen illustrated on examples in Briggs. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st April 2015 at 02:43 AM.

2nd April 2015, 12:05 PM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's. They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt. This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo. --ElJay Attached Images

3rd April 2015, 02:17 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Its all about the Pommel Hi Eljay and welcome Ibrahiim Eljay you are correct, when it comes to hilt construction, actually there has been one posted on this site in the past. However, it is the pommel that sets the so called Irish hilt apart and I am, yet to find an example complete with this pommel and a different blade. Although like everything there is sure to be one out there somewhere. I have attached a picture of the previous sword posted on this forum, sadly can’t see the blade so I hope Mark Deyer who posted this sword originally in July 2013 will share with us a picture of the blade. When I refer to the pommel you will note that both the example you posted and Mark’s have the typical English bun pommel. The swords reputedly with an Irish connection have a more Scottish style of pommel, quite distinctive. It is this combination that I am yet to find with a different blade. I was also thinking about our tendency to refer to many early swords as being composite in a negative light. In reality with Germany, Italy and Spain being famous for their production of blades particularly from circa 1500-1700, most extremely original swords would fit in the composite category. For example almost all Scottish basket hilts had imported blades, the Scott’s made great hilts but appear to have had little appetite for making blades when you could order excellent quality from Germany or simply take one off a dead Englishman and have it re-hilted. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

3rd April 2015, 02:49 AM	#9
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Hi Ibrahiim With the very early baskets there is certainly been some research to suggest that origins between Scottish, Irish and English are very blurred. There is a particularly good article written on the Sword hilts of the Border Reivers which I will attach, not sure how well it will come up in Jpeg. When it comes to Shotley bridge this is an interesting area and there are two small books available that deal specifically with Shotley Bridge. They are: BYGATE, John G The Hollow Blade - The german swordmakers of shotley bridge SC 74 pp. RICHARDSON, David The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge, PB Northern History Booklet No: 37, 67pp. Welcome to a fascinating area of sword history. The basket hilt has a certain amount of romance attached to it, but the variety and the fact that examples can also be attributed to Europe make it particularly interesting area of study. If only swords could talk we would know so much more. Cheers Cathey and Rex. Attached Images