Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .

Salaams Jim, This is a great example of our huge library resource being better than much of what is out there...almost .. In researching I found your comments in earlier forums most interesting...and of course what brilliant resources you have aboard the Bookmobile !!! and how great it is to see you back..

I was puzzled at first in seeing this blade with a basket hilt and wondered what the connotations were in trying to solve the equation... I need not have bothered as your explanation hits the mark...A straight forward blade from Sudan but made in Solingen brought home and reworked onto a basket hilt... My recollection of blade marks puts the original European stamp type with Peter Munich in Toledo?:....Then the mark moved to Solingen ....(I refer to your own thread on blade marks). On its way it would have been given the Dukari treatment...then the basket rehilt..

The European moons are quite different to the North African style which appear to be Islamic in the Dukari fashion... The European moons, however, had another connotation which seems to be anti Papal.

Hats off to all the other contributors of this excellent group of articles and the superb examples shown.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lee]

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

[ulfberth]

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

better format this time

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jasper, and Ibrahiim and Ulfberth thank you so very much for the kind words!
These swords and the topics of trade blades, markings and their incorporation into many forms of ethnographic swords brings back many years of memories in research. Lee, the anecdote you share here of course brings back wonderful memories as well, and well illustrates how the conundrum of trade blades and their use in so many forms through many generations.

The term conundrum applies as these blades often took on new identities as they were refurbished into various mounts though their long and often quite eventful lives. While it is often tempting to regard blades in seemingly incongruent context as fakes or contrivances, in ethnographic circumstances most often 'recycling' reached elaborate dimensions, and these assembled pieces were honest 'working' weapons.

The very reason this forum, the European Armoury ,was formed as an extension to the Ethnographic Forum was to address the need to better understand European and other blade sources which constantly were present in ethnographic contexts. Very often these somewhat separate fields became emphatically combined.

In the case of this thread and the fascinating basket hilt topic, the digression to blades as present of some of these basket hilts is often key to proper identification and assessment of examples. This is the case with blades often found in kaskara as discussed, and occasionally there are other anomalies which must be evaluated in the same manner.

Getting back to the main topic, I would like to note that much as Lee has described in his anecdote, though the blade discussed seems to be a later example of course than this very early hilt, there can be other reasons for its presence in context. During the British Raj in India there seems to have been instances of examples of quite early swords being proudly worn by Indian officers and ranking individuals in native regiments. I can recall a photo for example of a ranking Indian officer c. 1890s holding an 18th century Scottish basket hilt. It seems this was not a singular case, and while admittedly tenous, I include the scenario only as observation for consideration.
There were a number of notable Scottish and Irish regiments in India in these times, and the idea of their officers having ancestral swords of considerable vintage does not seem unreasonable.

Incidentally, I have owned for many years, an Indian pata with very old gauntlet hilt......its blade, as pointed out to me in later years was distinctly a kaskara blade with the characteristic triple central fullers and astral themed motif much as seen illustrated on examples in Briggs.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,

the blade looks identical in shape like the one in your pictures, its 4,5 cm wide at the crossguard and 92 cm long, the inlay in the middle is a bit different and it is definitely of hexagonal hollow shape.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[E.B. Erickson]

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Here's some additional thoughts on the Irish 3/4 baskets like Cathey's.

They do exist with other blade types. The one in Mazansky shows but a single fuller, so not likely to be one of the Trade blades, as they all have triple fullers right up to the hilt. And on the first page of this thread is a sword posted by Mark Deyer - same basket as Cathey's, bun shaped pommel, and has what I would bet is a se blade with the narrow and wide fullering. I may be wrong about that, but one thing is sure, Mark's blade is a lot narrower than the one in Cathey's hilt.

This Irish style hilt also exists in full basket versions; see the attached photo.

--ElJay

Salaams Eljay, Sir, I am a beginner to the world of this type of hilt however I am interested in the Irish Basket Hilt and where such hilts were manufactured... Am I right in thinking that this is only a terminology and that there was no actual Irish Basket but that the Scottish Basket was simply sometimes referred to as Irish. (depending on how much Drambuii was consumed)
I am especially interested in the Shotley Bridge Swordmaker and wondered if they made a lot of Baskets for remounts and or for blades from there... I note the running Fox and SH on an earlier post related to the Shotley maker.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lee

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

Salaams Lee, I missed entirely your excellent pictures and the way the Dukari moons had been resculpted to form Scottish Thistles which initially I thought were Persian Split Palmettes...

How right is your comment on examination of the whole sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

OK, here's my last basket for awhile. I do have other basket and half baskets to post, but they haven't been photographed yet. I will hopefully have time in July to take pictures of them, and will post shortly thereafter.

French, ca. 1750 (?)
32” straight se blade with narrow and wide fullers. The blade has been shortened from about 36”, and is etched with the French royal arms, sun-in-splendor, and scrolls.
Brass basket crudely made of two halves, copper brazed together. There are 4 holes where the forward guard loops were riveted on. There used to be a scrolled “quillion” at the wrist, but this has been removed.
At first glance this looks like an English military sword, and when I first saw this sword and it's twin in a collection in Maine, that's what I thought they were. However, inspection revealed numerous detail differences between this and a product of the British Isles. The former owner produced a book, “The Auld Alliance”, by Wood, and in it was a photo of one of these with the riveted loops and the thumb scroll in place, and with a 36” blade (if my memory serves). The text stated that these were made for Jacobites who had fled Scotland and were serving in the French army. I mentioned above that there were two of these in the Maine collection: the only difference between the two was the blade etching. The other sword had a large panelled “VIVE LE ROI” on the blade. I did obtain both of the swords from the collector in Maine, but the other one was traded off years ago.

[Cathey]

HI Eljay,

Very interesting sword, your right at first glance distinctly British. Did you keep pictures of the other sword you traded, if so I would love to see them.

Cheer Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Cathey,
Unfortunately, the other French basket was traded long before I began taking photographs of my swords.
However, it was literally a twin to this one, so just imagine a large etched panel with VIVE LE ROI on the blade and you've got it!

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

Hi Cathey and E.B.

I have collected basket hilts before but sold them like 20 years ago.
I have seen and sometimes see basket hilts that are of French origin or with French blades.
At one point I had one with a brass basket that was left at Waterloo, however I never found out if it was French or English or Scottish, it was in its scabbard with brass mountings, double edged blade with one fuller and rather short, almost like an infantry sword.
Anyway, here is one that is described as "Forte-épée écossaise de la 1ere compagnie des Gardes du corps du roi marquée "Vive le Roy - 1731"
wide shell combat sword forte, where sometimes contained the arms of France, the blade bearing the inscription "Vive le Roy"."

And the look of it is surely not French, If you would find a sword like this without inscriptions on the blade, one would never think of it as French.

It is present in the French le musée de l'Empéri Ancien régime

kind regards Ulfberth