Basket hilted swords

[Iain]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

I hope nobody feels I've derailed this thread by bringing up the African aspect.

Here's a couple larger images of the Czerny sword. It really does seem a twin.

[Will M]

I was quite leery of this one at Czerny's, the grip has no covering and is wood with red/brown and black as is the finish on the remainder of the sword.
Only recent rust is red/brown and it's not rust.
It very much looks like red primer with black paint applied and since then worn down.
I may be mistaken but I have never seen this colouring on a sword.

[Jim McDougall]

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .

[E.B. Erickson]

And now for a few baskets from the continent.

Probably German, ca 1600.
32" curved se blade with single wide fuller, stamped with a mark on the left side.
Grip is a replacement that I need to replace one day, and the pommel may be a replacement as well.
Although of nice form, this is a crude munition grade basket of fairly hefty construction. There is a small curved hilt element missing on the left side of the hilt.

[E.B. Erickson]

German, also ca.1600
37" straight se blade with a single moderately wide fuller, stamped with a heart and cross on the left side. The heart/cross stamp has been tentatively identified as an Italian bladesmith's mark.
While the basket itself is typical, the long straight quillions are unusual, and I've only seen one other hilt of this type with quillions like these. The base of the guard consists of two solid shells, the left one with a thumbring attached.
This sword is in excavated and cleaned condition. The forward quillion is modern, and several pieces of the guard have been repaired. The leather covered grip is one of my restorations.

[E.B. Erickson]

German. I've seen these hilts dated from the 1550s up to about 1600.
41" straight de blade with a short central fuller in which is engraved IOHANNES.
Interesting hilt form that may have inspired Schiavonas. The oval members pierced with a slot defy identification, although I have heard a few hypotheses put forward (one of them x-rated).
The wire bound grip is one of my restorations, but the ferrules are original.

I first came across this sword in the early 1990s, when a collector that I knew got it out of a European collection. My aquaintance brought it to me because the grip was gone, and he wanted a replacement. The sword was covered in old, black, thick lacquer, which I suspect was used as a preservative in an old arsenal. The lacquer was to be removed as well. Where the lacquer resisted moisture and stuck firmly to the steel, the steel is nicely preserved, but where moisture penetrated the lacquer, some moderately deep pitting is present. So in the photos you can see areas of pitting, and right next door is a virtually pristine section of metal.

[cornelistromp]

@ Jim nice to see you back here :-)

@ E.B. Erickson
wow, nice
Iam still looking for one of those.
this type of basket hilt from the third quarter of the 16C, is extremely beautiful and extremely rare, there are only a few known to me.


the most beautiful I know of, is auctioned at Bonhams;

A Composite North German Basket-Hilted Sword
Sold for £2,640 (€3,602) inc. premium


Auction 14956: Fine Antique Arms & Armour from the Henk L. Visser Collection 28 Nov 2007 13:00 GMT

also pictures of two others from the same auction, the left sword was for a period in my collection, the inner guard is formed as a fleur de lis.

best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

A fascinating topic, and Cathey as always presents superb examples along with outstanding support and documentation.

With the 'crescent moon' anomalies I would like to add my own notes and I pretty much concur with Eljay toward possible explanations.

As far as I have known, and I spent several hours going through Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Neumann, et al, there are no examples I can find of paired crescent moons at fuller terminus on European blades. It seems I saw one blade with something like it but not in the fuller aligned configuration.

The 'man in the moon' or crescent with face device seems to have derived from perhaps cosmologically oriented occult motif in Spain in mid to late 16th c. These figures also became somewhat allegorical in various themed configurations. Most often they were grouped with other devices and punzones to certain makers. The practice of course was adopted by Solingen by the 17th c.

The inclusion in this thread of the 'North African' connection is well placed as German trade blades using these kinds of marks became the prototype for copies of these applied by native artisans. Briggs (1965, p.88) states, "...I have seen no Tuareg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European". This was in reference to the application of these half moons to blades with three fullers positioned much in the manner of the shown examples in this thread.
In his 'Records of the Medieval Sword' , Oakeshott describes the cases where many kaskara brought back from the Sudan after Omdurman had their blades removed to be remounted in hilts of various vintage, often medieval .
It does seem possible that this might be the scenario described by Eljay. I know that I have an old Indian pata which has a triple fullered kaskara type blade with cosmological motif as often seen on these bringbacks.

I know that Solingen is believed to have produced blades in the Mahdist period and probably post Omdurman specifically for export to entrepots in North Africa, and we have long tried to determine if perhaps these might have been stamped with these moons there. Thus far no evidence has been found as far as I have known. It is also known that the moon stamping was done in native centers as Briggs notes applications over many of the thuluth type motif blades.

I think that it should be considered that these blades could be German trade blades which might have been in kaskara (much as in suggestion by Iain).

I think the exception might well be the ribbon hilt with the broadsword blade with the fullers on each side near hilt flanking the central three. If ever there was a strong case for European use of paired moons on an early broadsword blade this would be it! Those moons look very European.

Regarding the 1745 example, what puzzles me is that I had always thought that 18th century British cavalry favored 'backsword' or single edged blades. That would be another question regarding this blade with strangely degenerated looking moons (as the case with the North African 'dukari').
Naturally it might be argued that officers often carried ancestral blades however, but the North African possibility is a consideration .

Salaams Jim, This is a great example of our huge library resource being better than much of what is out there...almost .. In researching I found your comments in earlier forums most interesting...and of course what brilliant resources you have aboard the Bookmobile !!! and how great it is to see you back..

I was puzzled at first in seeing this blade with a basket hilt and wondered what the connotations were in trying to solve the equation... I need not have bothered as your explanation hits the mark...A straight forward blade from Sudan but made in Solingen brought home and reworked onto a basket hilt... My recollection of blade marks puts the original European stamp type with Peter Munich in Toledo?:....Then the mark moved to Solingen ....(I refer to your own thread on blade marks). On its way it would have been given the Dukari treatment...then the basket rehilt..

The European moons are quite different to the North African style which appear to be Islamic in the Dukari fashion... The European moons, however, had another connotation which seems to be anti Papal.

Hats off to all the other contributors of this excellent group of articles and the superb examples shown.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lee]

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

[ulfberth]

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

better format this time

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Cathey and EB, those are magnificent swords !
And Jim it so nice to read you again !!

Here is a german military sword with a basket hilt from the second part of the 16th century.
Provenance: it belonged to a group associated with the former Imperial seat at Schloss Ambras, Tyrol. The rapier and small sword Norman 1980 p. 151.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Dirk,

it is not a basket hilt to my standards, but defenately a very interesting and beautiful sword.
how is the transition from hexagonal to hollow(?) diamond shaped?
same as on the pictures?
I know 2 other swords with the same type of inlay also around 1570-1580.

see attachement.

best,
Jasper

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lee

These trade blades, as well as the ones with the etched sun, moon and stars, were quite widely distributed and may turn up in locally mounted swords from most any place that did not have a significant local blade making industry. There is another basket hilt with facing (away) half-moons that have been over-engraved to make them into thistles illustrated in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalog for 1996 in an article by the noted Scottish sword collector, the Baron of Earlshall (attached below).

I fell into one trap in my early collecting days when I bought a fine old Mexican / Spanish colonial espada ancha with engraved astral figures. A few months later I saw the same engravings in a book on a blade mounted as a kaskara and became convinced that my sword - as I was also told by a noted dealer at the time (1973) - was a made-up fake. I had no concept of the 'trade blade' back then. Years later I bought Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain in the same dealer's shop and there discovered that my treasure was exactly that. Fortunately I still had it. I have also seen other trade blades of a different form in both Moroccan nimchas and early American sabers.

The opposite trap is, of course, ever present and these trade blades do not offer much confirmation as to the source of the whole sword and so hilt elements must be very carefully scrutinized.

Salaams Lee, I missed entirely your excellent pictures and the way the Dukari moons had been resculpted to form Scottish Thistles which initially I thought were Persian Split Palmettes...

How right is your comment on examination of the whole sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

OK, here's my last basket for awhile. I do have other basket and half baskets to post, but they haven't been photographed yet. I will hopefully have time in July to take pictures of them, and will post shortly thereafter.

French, ca. 1750 (?)
32” straight se blade with narrow and wide fullers. The blade has been shortened from about 36”, and is etched with the French royal arms, sun-in-splendor, and scrolls.
Brass basket crudely made of two halves, copper brazed together. There are 4 holes where the forward guard loops were riveted on. There used to be a scrolled “quillion” at the wrist, but this has been removed.
At first glance this looks like an English military sword, and when I first saw this sword and it's twin in a collection in Maine, that's what I thought they were. However, inspection revealed numerous detail differences between this and a product of the British Isles. The former owner produced a book, “The Auld Alliance”, by Wood, and in it was a photo of one of these with the riveted loops and the thumb scroll in place, and with a 36” blade (if my memory serves). The text stated that these were made for Jacobites who had fled Scotland and were serving in the French army. I mentioned above that there were two of these in the Maine collection: the only difference between the two was the blade etching. The other sword had a large panelled “VIVE LE ROI” on the blade. I did obtain both of the swords from the collector in Maine, but the other one was traded off years ago.