British or American Dirk

Marcus · 16th February 2015, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

And what is the blade length, by the way ?

The blade is 9 inches, the handle only 3.

The pommel nut was one reason I was betting American over English.

fernando · 17th February 2015, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

The blade is 9 inches, the handle only 3...

A very small example indeed ... with an extremely short handle.

Will M · 17th February 2015, 02:58 PM

it's the grooving of the grip that is not symmetrical that gives it a less refined appearance. The measurements suggest a Victorian era letter opener.

fernando · 17th February 2015, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

... The measurements suggest a Victorian era letter opener.

Yes, why not ?

kronckew · 17th February 2015, 05:55 PM

saw a similar one on a google search, no dimensions tho.

3in. grip on yours is short, as noted maybe it broke off and was field repaired at that length?

in the 1800's they went to a larger, longer standard pattern middies dirk with a back strapped rayskin grip. prior to that it would have been a private purchase item of various size and quality depending on the new officer's purse. the midshipman's ages varied from pre-teens to grey haired and bitter men who had failed their exams for promotion to lieutenant. stuck halfway between the common ratings up forward and the real ossifers aft they were truly mid ship men.

this one attached from google images was noted as 1750-1770 british naval dirk, it appears to have a similarly etched blade too. it is missing the black bands of grunge accumulated in the grooves on the one in post no. 1.

Will M · 17th February 2015, 10:34 PM

I'm not saying that this isn't a dirk but it may be a civilian dagger or letter opener. Letters were very important back in the day.
This category along with axes sellers tend to label them all as military edged weapons. How many axes have you seen that are just tools but listed as boarding axe etc.
Early magazines picture all sorts of knives, daggers, pistols for dogs in their adverts. I would look there if you have access to some.

M ELEY · 18th February 2015, 12:02 AM

I've had 5 naval dirks over the years. No expert, but I'm betting naval dirk, whether repaired, cut down hilt or what have you. I've had one like this one in the past, with a 3 1/2" hilt and 8" blade. Mine exactly conformed to one pictured in the article by Peter Tuite (author of multiple books on naval arms). What conforms to a naval pattern is the diamond-shaped blade, simple crosshilt, along with the 'tall' ivory/bone grip. As astutely noted by Kronckew, it was the midshipmen who carried the majority of these to signify that they were very young officers (10 and up) and not 'common' seamen. These dressy types were not fighters. That being said, if one had a copy of Gilkerson's Borders Away (yes, that tired old manual I mention so freely-

), one will see Horatio Nelson's fighting dirk was...ahem...rather small. Some of the American fighting dirks were smaller, albeit with chunkier, wide blades. I still have one dirk in my collection with a (scarcely) 4" hilt and long stiletto blade of 15". Anyway, my .2 cents...

http://www.vallejogallery.com/object...ull%20view.jpg

http://landandseacollection.com/id559.html

Hurray! The pics worked this time! Spectacular article on British naval items. I recommend the download for those that value it. Please note Plate 35 for a very similar example (one like I used to own).

http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...9BOHhl-3xOcmHQ

17th February 2015, 05:55 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	saw a similar one on a google search, no dimensions tho. 3in. grip on yours is short, as noted maybe it broke off and was field repaired at that length? in the 1800's they went to a larger, longer standard pattern middies dirk with a back strapped rayskin grip. prior to that it would have been a private purchase item of various size and quality depending on the new officer's purse. the midshipman's ages varied from pre-teens to grey haired and bitter men who had failed their exams for promotion to lieutenant. stuck halfway between the common ratings up forward and the real ossifers aft they were truly mid ship men. this one attached from google images was noted as 1750-1770 british naval dirk, it appears to have a similarly etched blade too. it is missing the black bands of grunge accumulated in the grooves on the one in post no. 1. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 17th February 2015 at 06:13 PM.

18th February 2015, 12:02 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I've had 5 naval dirks over the years. No expert, but I'm betting naval dirk, whether repaired, cut down hilt or what have you. I've had one like this one in the past, with a 3 1/2" hilt and 8" blade. Mine exactly conformed to one pictured in the article by Peter Tuite (author of multiple books on naval arms). What conforms to a naval pattern is the diamond-shaped blade, simple crosshilt, along with the 'tall' ivory/bone grip. As astutely noted by Kronckew, it was the midshipmen who carried the majority of these to signify that they were very young officers (10 and up) and not 'common' seamen. These dressy types were not fighters. That being said, if one had a copy of Gilkerson's Borders Away (yes, that tired old manual I mention so freely- ), one will see Horatio Nelson's fighting dirk was...ahem...rather small. Some of the American fighting dirks were smaller, albeit with chunkier, wide blades. I still have one dirk in my collection with a (scarcely) 4" hilt and long stiletto blade of 15". Anyway, my .2 cents... http://www.vallejogallery.com/object...ull%20view.jpg http://landandseacollection.com/id559.html Hurray! The pics worked this time! Spectacular article on British naval items. I recommend the download for those that value it. Please note Plate 35 for a very similar example (one like I used to own). http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...9BOHhl-3xOcmHQ Last edited by M ELEY; 18th February 2015 at 12:46 AM.

17th February 2015, 02:58 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	it's the grooving of the grip that is not symmetrical that gives it a less refined appearance. The measurements suggest a Victorian era letter opener.

17th February 2015, 10:34 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	I'm not saying that this isn't a dirk but it may be a civilian dagger or letter opener. Letters were very important back in the day. This category along with axes sellers tend to label them all as military edged weapons. How many axes have you seen that are just tools but listed as boarding axe etc. Early magazines picture all sorts of knives, daggers, pistols for dogs in their adverts. I would look there if you have access to some.