Asian knife-need help!

Shakethetrees · 23rd August 2014, 06:34 PM

I just came across this "old friend" in the ongoing unpacking process from a move. I think I've owned this for the better part of twenty years.

It came to me through a man who was married to a Chinese woman from Tianjin, whose father had some political position which gave him access to some warehouses in that city. These warehouses held property that was supposedly rounded up during the Cultural Revolution, when anybody who thought they had something to worry about did their best to cut all cultural and material ties with the old regime. In today's terms, it was a Great Downsizing!

When I was studying in Xi'an in 1987 I repeatedly heard of this "warehouse" from contacts who were aware of things being very slowly filtered out for sale in the government approved antique shops.

The knife pictured is different from most forms because of its size, but it's vaguely similar stylistically to the Dadao. The quatrefoil guard is brass. The pommel part of the grip scales on the side opposite has broken away and is long missing.

Any ideas of a specific name for this, or even of one exists? Should I clean this conservatively and repair the pommel? Comments?

David R · 24th January 2015, 09:55 PM

I too would be interested in any information on this one, I saw something very similar to this on sale a couple of weeks ago.

DaveA · 25th January 2015, 10:13 AM

Wow,

This is really great. I have a weapon with a very similar blade shape, but it is a polearm. I have been struggling for years to identify it. There are many different types of polearms from China. I may have more info to post soon, but for now here is a photo of mine. It is 27 inches in length overall and very heavy. I am also posting a picture of a Chinese pole arm with a similar shape (on the far left).

Best,

Dave A.

Shakethetrees · 25th January 2015, 10:24 PM

I began a new thread several months ago when I posted images of a pole arm called "guandao".

Your pole arm somewhat resembles both the knife in this thread and the guandao post of early October.

I think it's a form that, being flamboyant, is apt to be copied and imitated.

Yours appears to be fairly late, i.e. twentieth century. The pole is held by the socket-grip. Mine bears a tang, and has the crust of age all over.

The knife shown in this thread could possibly be from South East Asia somewhere, but, as it came from a warehouse in Tianjin, who knows?

I am also hoping to get something more concrete that can lead to a confident attribution.

RSWORD · 26th January 2015, 12:57 AM

The knife in this thread is Chinese and probably mid 19th century. It has the 4 lobed guard found on some Chinese weapons and the shape and form of the grip shows Indian influence. Indian arms were popularized in the mid 18th century when the Emperor received gifts from India notably jade hilted daggers and swords. Notice the similarity of this grip shape to those Indian jade hilted examples. Although a century later the style remained. The shape of the blade is reminiscent of pole arms of the period. These short knives were made for civilian use and were popular amongst the gangs that required something short and fast to handle combat in the tight streets and back alley ways of the big cities.

josh stout · 26th January 2015, 04:54 PM

Yes, I agree. While the handle is in a style that would be consistent with the Qianlong period, the blade appears mid to late 19th c.. I have a large knife with a very similar handle that I always thought was 19th c., so it is nice to see another example.

The pole arm shaped blade mounted as one a handed a chopping weapon has a long history but the older examples tend to a different shape and are more finely made. I have seen them referred to as "podao", but there is some confusion with a two handed pole arm called either a "podao" or "pudao" depending who you talk to. Some people think the short form chopping knives were made from cut down pole arms, and there may be some examples out there, but I have only seen purpose made versions. In your case because the tang curves around to fit the handle, there is no doubt.

Shakethetrees · 26th January 2015, 07:39 PM

Thank you all for your input! One thing I neglected to mention is that the blade is of a fairly light weight, so I don't believe that using it to cut pole arm hafts would be realistic. I think this is strictly for hand to hand use, or for some other as yet unknown method.

The back of the blade is pierced with a small hole possibly for a streamer or ribbon, I would think.

So, possibly a WuShu weapon, but one not limited to just exercise, but combat?

Just my updated thoughts!

23rd August 2014, 06:34 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Asian knife-need help! I just came across this "old friend" in the ongoing unpacking process from a move. I think I've owned this for the better part of twenty years. It came to me through a man who was married to a Chinese woman from Tianjin, whose father had some political position which gave him access to some warehouses in that city. These warehouses held property that was supposedly rounded up during the Cultural Revolution, when anybody who thought they had something to worry about did their best to cut all cultural and material ties with the old regime. In today's terms, it was a Great Downsizing! When I was studying in Xi'an in 1987 I repeatedly heard of this "warehouse" from contacts who were aware of things being very slowly filtered out for sale in the government approved antique shops. The knife pictured is different from most forms because of its size, but it's vaguely similar stylistically to the Dadao. The quatrefoil guard is brass. The pommel part of the grip scales on the side opposite has broken away and is long missing. Any ideas of a specific name for this, or even of one exists? Should I clean this conservatively and repair the pommel? Comments? Attached Images

25th January 2015, 10:13 AM	#3
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Very interesting! I have similar weapon Wow, This is really great. I have a weapon with a very similar blade shape, but it is a polearm. I have been struggling for years to identify it. There are many different types of polearms from China. I may have more info to post soon, but for now here is a photo of mine. It is 27 inches in length overall and very heavy. I am also posting a picture of a Chinese pole arm with a similar shape (on the far left). Best, Dave A. Attached Images

24th January 2015, 09:55 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I too would be interested in any information on this one, I saw something very similar to this on sale a couple of weeks ago.

25th January 2015, 10:24 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I began a new thread several months ago when I posted images of a pole arm called "guandao". Your pole arm somewhat resembles both the knife in this thread and the guandao post of early October. I think it's a form that, being flamboyant, is apt to be copied and imitated. Yours appears to be fairly late, i.e. twentieth century. The pole is held by the socket-grip. Mine bears a tang, and has the crust of age all over. The knife shown in this thread could possibly be from South East Asia somewhere, but, as it came from a warehouse in Tianjin, who knows? I am also hoping to get something more concrete that can lead to a confident attribution.

26th January 2015, 12:57 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	The knife in this thread is Chinese and probably mid 19th century. It has the 4 lobed guard found on some Chinese weapons and the shape and form of the grip shows Indian influence. Indian arms were popularized in the mid 18th century when the Emperor received gifts from India notably jade hilted daggers and swords. Notice the similarity of this grip shape to those Indian jade hilted examples. Although a century later the style remained. The shape of the blade is reminiscent of pole arms of the period. These short knives were made for civilian use and were popular amongst the gangs that required something short and fast to handle combat in the tight streets and back alley ways of the big cities.

26th January 2015, 04:54 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Yes, I agree. While the handle is in a style that would be consistent with the Qianlong period, the blade appears mid to late 19th c.. I have a large knife with a very similar handle that I always thought was 19th c., so it is nice to see another example. The pole arm shaped blade mounted as one a handed a chopping weapon has a long history but the older examples tend to a different shape and are more finely made. I have seen them referred to as "podao", but there is some confusion with a two handed pole arm called either a "podao" or "pudao" depending who you talk to. Some people think the short form chopping knives were made from cut down pole arms, and there may be some examples out there, but I have only seen purpose made versions. In your case because the tang curves around to fit the handle, there is no doubt.

26th January 2015, 07:39 PM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Thank you all for your input! One thing I neglected to mention is that the blade is of a fairly light weight, so I don't believe that using it to cut pole arm hafts would be realistic. I think this is strictly for hand to hand use, or for some other as yet unknown method. The back of the blade is pierced with a small hole possibly for a streamer or ribbon, I would think. So, possibly a WuShu weapon, but one not limited to just exercise, but combat? Just my updated thoughts!