My gunong collection and some thoughts

Sajen · 19th January 2015, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

When I tried reversing the blade, it didn't fit into the scabbard well nor would it fit the handle well. What you see not only is the best fit but seems to be the original fit and orientation.

Here some pictures which show from up to down a.: the fit now inside the scabbard, b.: like it is normally (no perfect fit), and c.: a close up from this

Sajen · 24th January 2015, 12:49 PM

After I was outbid 2012 by this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong I was now able to acquire a nearly similar gunong, maybe from the same workshop, not antique, maybe WWII area, but very good worked IMHO.
Here are the pictures from the seller. Will post some more pictures when I have received it and have given it some maintenance.

Sajen · 24th January 2015, 12:54 PM

Here both side by side for comparison.

Robert · 26th January 2015, 07:23 AM

Hello Detlef, I really like these knives and though not antique they are very interesting. Because of the good workmanship, nice form and the fact that it's so unique I had even put a modest bid on this when I first saw it, but I was quickly outbid. At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection. I agree with Rick when he said: "wouldn't this make a great visual deterrent to a potential attacker when seen from twenty feet away, or across a room ." I think that this would be especially true if the room wasn't well lit. I am looking forward to it arriving to see just how well made it actually is. Again, my congratulations to you for winning this most interesting piece.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 26th January 2015, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection.

Hello Robert,

thank you for your kind words!

When I look to the both side by side I tend to say that I like my one more, the mother of pearl inlays at the handle scales are very nice IMHO and the engravings on the blade are also very nice.
Regards,
Detlef

kronckew · 26th January 2015, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here some pictures which show from up to down a.: the fit now inside the scabbard, b.: like it is normally (no perfect fit), and c.: a close up from this

i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.

Sajen · 26th January 2015, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.

Hi Kronckew,

I understand what you meant but read again #56 what Jose has written. And when you would turn the handle by 180 degree the look inside scabbard will be unusual as well, see attached picture. And when I understand Jose correct it wasn't possible.

Best regards,
Detlef

David · 27th January 2015, 12:06 AM

It should be noted that the bend of the pommel does NOT always flow in the same direction on all gunongs. The ivory gunong on the left is a straight single edged variety. The one on the right is a wavy blade. Neither of these blades fit the sheath in the reverse direction so this is how they were made. I suppose it is possible that these differ do to righthand/lefthand preferences.
Regarding Wayne's comments on point direction, the wavy one does indeed have the direction of the point bending to the same side as the bend of the hilt, though i am always hesitant to claim "wrong" or "correct" when it comes to these daggers as i do not believe we really know enough about them to make such definitive statements. Just as the pommels don't always bend to the same side i am open to the concept that the point of the wavy dagger might also vary from time to time.

Robert · 27th January 2015, 12:44 AM

One thing to remember is that the tangs on these are usually curved to follow the curve of the tang socket in the hilt. The tang on this dagger is curved in the opposite direction of the point of the blade unlike all of the ones that I have personally seen where the curve of the tang is curved in the same direction as that of the point of the blade. The tang will only fit properly into the socket in one direction unless you modify either the tang socket or the tang itself. I would suggest that this might have been ordered this way by the original owner. If being used in close quarters (with an upward stabbing motion say to the stomach area) having the blades point facing upwards might help in making it easier for the blade penetrate both cloth and flesh alike. JTOL

Best,
Robert

kronckew · 27th January 2015, 12:46 AM

ithink i am having trouble explaining my comments. they had nothing to do with the scabard, the scabbard fit is a red herring. it only was about the point of the blade pointing down when held with the bend held in the grip/pommel in your palm in normal fashion.

whichever way the grip is attached to the blade, it will only fit the scabbard one way. the grip when detached from the blade, as in a keris, can be reattached pointing willy-nilly in any direction, restrained by it's geometry of course.

a square gunong tang with a square hole in the grip would only allow 4 directions, two of which would point the pommel away from the flat left or right side if the blade, and would be highly unusual orientations. the other two orientations place the pommel the same direction as the edges, the more usual of which is to present the last luk at the point towards the ground. the tip is thus below the centerline perpendicular to the guard.

i cannot find an image of one (or of a kris or keris) where it does not other than the one presented initially here which i believed to be an artefact of it's reassembly when it was restored by jose.

if it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.

Robert · 27th January 2015, 02:10 AM

Quote:

f it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.

Kronckew, I most likely have not seen as many of these disassembled as you have, but on everyone I have handled personally the blades tang would only fit into the hilt one way (where everything, blade, guard and hilt lined up properly) unless being forced. Here is a link to a gunong that I restored: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong You will see that just like the blade on the one Jose restored that there is a slight curve in the tang (opposite direction from Detlefs) and that the tang socket in the hilt itself looks to be mostly round (again like the one we are discussing) but the tang would only fit into the socket one way where everything would line up properly. As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.

Best,
Robert

kronckew · 27th January 2015, 08:17 AM

'nuff said. as i mentioned earlier, as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway. my OCD is not important.

Sajen · 27th January 2015, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.

Agree here with Robert and think that Jose have enough knowledge that when it has been possible that he would has attached the pommel in the "correct" direction. Like said before, I have had the same thoughts like Wayne when I have received the gunong from Jose. But he assured that it was only possible like he has done it.

Regards,
Detlef

24th January 2015, 12:49 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,193	After I was outbid 2012 by this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong I was now able to acquire a nearly similar gunong, maybe from the same workshop, not antique, maybe WWII area, but very good worked IMHO. Here are the pictures from the seller. Will post some more pictures when I have received it and have given it some maintenance. Attached Images

24th January 2015, 12:54 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,193	Here both side by side for comparison. Attached Images

27th January 2015, 12:06 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	It should be noted that the bend of the pommel does NOT always flow in the same direction on all gunongs. The ivory gunong on the left is a straight single edged variety. The one on the right is a wavy blade. Neither of these blades fit the sheath in the reverse direction so this is how they were made. I suppose it is possible that these differ do to righthand/lefthand preferences. Regarding Wayne's comments on point direction, the wavy one does indeed have the direction of the point bending to the same side as the bend of the hilt, though i am always hesitant to claim "wrong" or "correct" when it comes to these daggers as i do not believe we really know enough about them to make such definitive statements. Just as the pommels don't always bend to the same side i am open to the concept that the point of the wavy dagger might also vary from time to time. Attached Images

27th January 2015, 12:46 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	ithink i am having trouble explaining my comments. they had nothing to do with the scabard, the scabbard fit is a red herring. it only was about the point of the blade pointing down when held with the bend held in the grip/pommel in your palm in normal fashion. whichever way the grip is attached to the blade, it will only fit the scabbard one way. the grip when detached from the blade, as in a keris, can be reattached pointing willy-nilly in any direction, restrained by it's geometry of course. a square gunong tang with a square hole in the grip would only allow 4 directions, two of which would point the pommel away from the flat left or right side if the blade, and would be highly unusual orientations. the other two orientations place the pommel the same direction as the edges, the more usual of which is to present the last luk at the point towards the ground. the tip is thus below the centerline perpendicular to the guard. i cannot find an image of one (or of a kris or keris) where it does not other than the one presented initially here which i believed to be an artefact of it's reassembly when it was restored by jose. if it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 27th January 2015 at 01:27 AM.

26th January 2015, 07:23 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, I really like these knives and though not antique they are very interesting. Because of the good workmanship, nice form and the fact that it's so unique I had even put a modest bid on this when I first saw it, but I was quickly outbid. At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection. I agree with Rick when he said: "wouldn't this make a great visual deterrent to a potential attacker when seen from twenty feet away, or across a room ." I think that this would be especially true if the room wasn't well lit. I am looking forward to it arriving to see just how well made it actually is. Again, my congratulations to you for winning this most interesting piece. Best, Robert

27th January 2015, 12:44 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	One thing to remember is that the tangs on these are usually curved to follow the curve of the tang socket in the hilt. The tang on this dagger is curved in the opposite direction of the point of the blade unlike all of the ones that I have personally seen where the curve of the tang is curved in the same direction as that of the point of the blade. The tang will only fit properly into the socket in one direction unless you modify either the tang socket or the tang itself. I would suggest that this might have been ordered this way by the original owner. If being used in close quarters (with an upward stabbing motion say to the stomach area) having the blades point facing upwards might help in making it easier for the blade penetrate both cloth and flesh alike. JTOL Best, Robert

27th January 2015, 08:17 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	'nuff said. as i mentioned earlier, as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway. my OCD is not important.