Sort Of OT : Do You Ever Wonder

[Rick]

There is some fantastic new bladework being done these days .
I see gorgeous hand forged Mediaeval European style swords ; Andrew owns a stunning contemporary dha ; the new keris I purchase are beautifully executed examples of classic designs and pamors .

How will they fare in the arms markets and eBays of 2150 ?
Will they be recognised for the works of art that they are ; or will they suffer the fate of 19thC. revival arms ?

Comments ?

[erlikhan]

I bid on "B". A real antique arm or another thing must be the one which reflects something from the life of its period , a real tool serving to the usage purpose of its time according to me. Otherwise it is just a nice artistic decorative piece.

regards

[Tim Simmons]

I tend to agree with erlikhan. I am only interested in the objects and not just weapons, that functioned in their cultural setting and that would include a purpose for display pieces. Reproduction for reproduction sake does not really appeal to me. A modern military parade sword has to be outstanding to raise any excitement. I feel the same about repro. Also there can be a faint whiff of FANTASY Tim

[ariel]

I join the above gentlemen.
The appeal of antiques comes in large part from "being there". The old blades were made for usage at the battlefield and many examples in our collections likely did their bloody duty.
The Victorian replicas of the old European swords, the Qajari Revival swords, the 20th century Caucasian kindjals mass-produced by Mudunov, Omarov etc, the new Rajastani "damascus", etc, etc, are only qualitatively different from the modern Chinese e-bay junk: although of unquestionably better workmanship, they were made to be a souvenir, a decoration, a toy; consequently they have no past behind them and no future but hanging on the wall.
Do not invest into modern Japanese swords, because 200 years down the road they will be worth their weight in....iron .

[Lee]

Erlikhan is, in my opinion, absolutely correct.

The contemporary dha and new keris mentioned may well gain in value because these forms remain alive in their culture and, just as with modern Japanese swords, may continue to have significant artistic value.

Ironically, many of the European medieval style swords being made today are functionally better than the originals (such as dikonsword with a very careful copying of ancient design implemented fully aware of modern materials technology). But these are modern martial arts sporting equipment and or costume accessories. They were not there long ago to have played a part in our history, and therein lies the rub.

I recall a comment on another forum a few years ago that just blew me away, when members there opined that they would not want an antique sword because of what nasty things may have been done with it!

Good, I thought, that leaves more for me, and yet, that was part of the motivation in creating the EEWRS - to encourage collectors to pursue something *REAL*.

See the drivel at the bottom of the home page .

[Andrew]

I doubt newly manufactured edged weapons will ever have the identical appeal as their authentic, antique counterparts, for the reasons stated above.

However, I do not believe the quality weapons being produced today will be looked upon in the same poor light as Victorian and Qajar revival stuff. Cheap wall-hangers will be, but not the well-made modern weapons which I anticipate will have intrinsic value of their own, not really dependant on the culture they mimic.

For instance, has anyone checked the prices on "pre-owned" Howard Clark Japanese-styled swords lately? They fetch significantly more than they did when new.

How about a Vince Evans dao or shamshir?

Modern Japanese shinken often reach and exceed the prices for nihonto.

Modern weapons will be cherished, not necessarily for their form or culture of origin, but for their quality, and their makers. Any who doubt this should take a look at the Macau Museum of Art's current exhibition "Masters of Fire" which features the work of contemporary bladesmiths.

I think we are experiencing a new "golden age" of edged weapon production supported, in large part, by the internet.

[VANDOO]

A LARGE PART OF COLLECTING ETHINOGRAPHIC ARMS HAS TO DO WITH THE HISTORY OF THE GROUP MAKING IT, THAT INCLUDES THEIR BELIEFS, THE WAY THE WEAPONS WERE MADE, USED AND RESPECTED BY THE OWNERS OR FEARED BY THE ADVERSARY. OUR MIND SET IS WITH THIS KIND OF GENUINE WEAPON NOT WITH A WONDERFUL WORK OF ART BY A TRUE MASTER OF METAL WORK.
THERE ARE THOSE WHO COLLECT THIS KIND OF WORK AND HAVE A LOVE FOR IT THAT RIVALS OUR OWN FOR WHAT WE COLLECT. THERE ARE COLLECTORS OF CERTIAN MAKERS LYLE COMES TO MIND I REMEMBER WHEN HE FIRST STARTED I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOME OF HIS EARLY ITEMS THEY ARE WORTH BIG BUCKS NOW. THERE ARE COLLECTERS OF BUCK, BARLOW, BOKER AND OTHER POCKET KNIVES,LETTER OPENERS AND FANTASY KNIVES. THE HISTORY OF SOME OF THESE MAKERS CAN BE VERY INTERESTING ALSO, I ESPECIALLY LIKE A FIGHTING KNIFE MADE BY A MAN NAMED NICKELS ,CAN'T AFFORD ONE THOUGH
I CAN APPRECIATE THE WORK BEING DONE NOW BY THE TOP ARTISTS AND THEIR WORK WILL LIKELY APPRECIATE IN VALUE IN FUTURE. I WOULD NOT MIND HAVING SOME OF THE GREAT THINGS THEY ARE MAKEING TODAY BUT THE ONES I WOULD WANT WOULD COST MORE THAN SEVERAL OF THE WEAPONS I TRULY LOVE. SO I WILL SPEND MY MONEY ON THE GOOD OLD ITEMS AS THAT IS WHERE MY HEART AND INTREST TRULY LIES.

[Rich]

I would agree with folks about modern swords; they don't have
the history or cultural connection that antiques do. I also
agree that we're having a renaissance of modern arms making.
However, long term I doubt the value of the swords will hold up for
reasons above; but, custom knives may (?) since they are quite
usable (even tho most aren't). I do see that older, used but not
abused, customs knives are selling better than the new ones by
the same maker in many instances. Could be knives won't hold
up either. Personally I prefer antiques although I do have about
a half dozen modern customs (mostly Randalls).

Rich S

[Tim Simmons]

That may be so but myself and I suppose many others will still see these repro things rather like collecting phone cards or beanie babies or what ever they are called? they fetch a lot of money!!!!! I am wicked Tim , PS, I do not count modern hunting utility knives in this comment.

[Rivkin]

I tend to disagree. While I dislike "Revival" or "Reproduction" swords, they are not made for collectors. They are made for militant nationalists (showa being a great example) and souvenir lovers. Japanese swords (of whatever date and quality) will always be popular as long as japanese nationalism will be able to convince people that japanese culture is cool, completely unique, and their swords are absolutely the best. Today it is not a problem - from "kill bill", "last samurai" to your local karate dojo we have "senseis" spreading the word.
Caucasian kindjals made today (Asya & Kizlyar) are also not made for collectors. Chechen campaigns provide ample numbers of contracted officers looking for a souvenir. Nationalistic Cossack wannabes all want to have a “real shashka from Dagestan”. Polish nationalism is rather intact, and that’s why it is better to be a “polish sword” than a simple karabela.

Victorian reproductions are not popular due to the nearly complete destruction of european/english-american nationalism. What was the last time we had “enlish-american history month” or “white pride parade” with more than 50 attendees? And the massive outbreak of such nationalism aka third reich was accomponied by massive making of reproductions and other daggers, swords etc.

[ariel]

I think Rivkin has a very good point.
On the other hand, real collectors will stay around for a long time (there were collectors of Greek antiquities in ancient Rome!), but the flavour of national pride will shift. Who knows, may be the most sought after stuff 200 years from now will be the Chinese junk we laugh at today.

[RSWORD]

I believe that quality items will always hold and increase in value regardless of the period of time they were manufactured. While many factors play into value such as historic context, provenance, collector interest,and so on, invariably a very well made sword will do well. I do not think the mass produced items of today will hold much future interest but the smiths that take a lot of care to carefully manufacture something of quality, ie a Vince Evans, then you have the same conditions as two hundred years ago except the lack of battlefield experience. Because a smith like Vince maybe will only do a few hundred blades in a lifetime, I think the future collector would prize a well made sword from the late 20th, early 21st century. Quality will always turn the collectors head.

[Rick]

Rick , that is about the conclusion I came to .
A work of art is a joy forever .
Now I expect that society and interests will change over the centuries but I suspect that unless legislated out of existence Arms Collecting will always have a niche in the art world .

[Federico]

Into all that has been said (which I also agree with) I will throw in the caveat for modern custom jobs, the value will hold as long as the smith is remembered. In as much as their value derives its worth not so much from the quality of work, but in as much from the reputation of the smith. Ive seen many high quality pieces made from amateur to novice smiths that can blow away some of the custom jobs in quality, but due to the lack of fame of the smith demand extremely low prices. Of course smiths naturally build reputation from quality work, but there is naturally a certain level of inflation in price that does not reflect quality when someone becomes "famous". We bump ourselves into the future, where the name is no longer remembered, while the quality will be recognized, the lack of name may drop the price a couple of decimal places. How many high quality victorian era ,or whatever past repro tradition you wish, are often just dismissed just because of when it was made, vs the actual pieces quality. Into that light, throw in custom jobs of today.

[Rick]

That's an interesting take Federico but I've never seen a signed kris or keris ; they tend to be judged on workmanship and materials alone .

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Rick

That's an interesting take Federico but I've never seen a signed kris or keris ; they tend to be judged on workmanship and materials alone .

Thats the rub, particularly with ethnographic pieces and custom jobs. Ive seen some very nice custom work, but in the end the quality was not necessarily leaps and bounds above what a good smith of the day could make, but yet the price (due to the fame of the smith) was light years beyond what such a piece could garner. I remember trying to commission a plain battle kris a number years back, and almost every quote I got was in the thousands, when at the time even the most pristine kris be-decked in rare materials would not even draw the low end quotes in prices. I suppose itll depend on how the market changes between the two fields, whether one will rise or the other will fall. But since the custom jobs have so much more room to fall, and well I havent heard any big plans for a major Hollywood movie to feature kris or dha, I do not expect a major spike in prices for most ethnographic weapons, and as such well when youre on the bottom there aint much room to fall but when your on a lofty peak its a helluva drop.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Federico

...value derives its worth not so much from the quality of work, but in as much from the reputation of the smith...

I have heard this before, too, including privately from some very well regarded modern American bladesmiths who personally often hold some of the ethnographic work in very high esteem and are horrified by celebrated fellow smiths who are 'coasting' on their laurels or are more a product of the blade magazines than anything that came off of their anvil or grinder.

[VANDOO]

P.R. IS A VERY BIG PART OF BECOMING FAMOUS AND WELL KNOWN, OFTEN IT IS DONE BY SOMEONE WHO WISHES TO PROMOTE THE ARTISTS WORK USUALLY WITH THE HOPE OF MAKEING SOME MONEY HIS SELF. SOMETIMES IT COMES ABOUT WHEN THEY FIND A PATRON WITH LOTS OF CASH WHO LIKES THEIR WORK AND SHOWS IT TO HIS FRIENDS AND IT BECOMES THE IN THING TO HAVE SOMETHING MADE BY THE ARTIST. RARELY THE ARTIST HIMSELF IS ABLE TO PRACTICE HIS CRAFT AND ALSO PROMOTE HIS WORK SUCESSFULLY.
IT IS NOT UNUSUAL THAT ARTISTS OF GREATER TALENT OFTEN ARE NEVER WELL KNOWN WHILE ONES OF LESSER TALENTS BUT MORE EGO OR CONECTIONS ARE MORE SUCESSFUL. THIS APPLYS TO ALL THE ARTS FROM MUSIC TO PAINTING, SCULPTING AND EVEN SWORD AND KNIFE MAKEING. PERHAPS SWORD SMITHS NEED AGENTS TOO AND ALL THE GRIEF THAT CAN COME FROM THAT

[Battara]

ON the work I have done so far (not including jewelry I have made) I have hesitated to place my mark on it to better flow into the original piece. STill struggling with the issue, but will continue to hesitate for now.

I agree: quality, quality, quality.....