Shamshir for comment

Congoblades · 6th December 2014, 01:21 PM

Have also this one, similar fullers as the sword. Will probably be of the same region. The decoration on the tip of the sheath is a bit strange.

Looks more like german or austrian??

Kubur · 6th December 2014, 03:10 PM

The lion with the sword or the gazelle on your scabbard are pure Persian motives.

For me, your sword is Persian from A to Z.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th December 2014, 12:07 AM

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

estcrh · 7th December 2014, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

Great information Oliver. here is a link to a PDf copy which I think is to the book you referenced, unfortunately it is not in English.

EG Astvatsaturyan. "Weapons of peoples of the Caucasus"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...80642063,d.aWw

Kubur · 7th December 2014, 02:31 PM

Thank you very much Oliver
Now another point, could you explain the fact that some qaddara with the blades that you described are covered with golden inscriptions, farsi as well.
Do you think that they did the inscriptions and the decoration on the blades later??? Some are published in the book of Khorasani, others are visible on line.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th December 2014, 06:17 PM

Yes of course, chiseled panels, inscriptions and koftgari could be, and often were, done at virtually any time after the blade was finished. Note that these techniques are typically found on areas of the blade which are subject to less hardening in the heat-treating process.

Ariel, what was used in Persia in period was a combination of borax and other constituents, applied in a paste and allowed to harden. I know a couple of restorers have mentioned that patching plaster, the sort you mix with water, is effective. I imagine it's available at any hardware store. Bear in mind that while this pretty well duplicates the color and texture of the original when dry, it's only intended to stabilize the guard, not to make the sword combat-ready... ;0)

6th December 2014, 01:21 PM	#1
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Have also this one, similar fullers as the sword. Will probably be of the same region. The decoration on the tip of the sheath is a bit strange. Looks more like german or austrian?? Attached Images

7th December 2014, 12:07 AM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly. Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work. Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 7th December 2014 at 12:49 AM.

7th December 2014, 06:17 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	Yes of course, chiseled panels, inscriptions and koftgari could be, and often were, done at virtually any time after the blade was finished. Note that these techniques are typically found on areas of the blade which are subject to less hardening in the heat-treating process. Ariel, what was used in Persia in period was a combination of borax and other constituents, applied in a paste and allowed to harden. I know a couple of restorers have mentioned that patching plaster, the sort you mix with water, is effective. I imagine it's available at any hardware store. Bear in mind that while this pretty well duplicates the color and texture of the original when dry, it's only intended to stabilize the guard, not to make the sword combat-ready... ;0) Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 7th December 2014 at 06:28 PM.

6th December 2014, 03:10 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The lion with the sword or the gazelle on your scabbard are pure Persian motives. For me, your sword is Persian from A to Z.

7th December 2014, 02:31 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you very much Oliver Now another point, could you explain the fact that some qaddara with the blades that you described are covered with golden inscriptions, farsi as well. Do you think that they did the inscriptions and the decoration on the blades later??? Some are published in the book of Khorasani, others are visible on line.