Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[colin henshaw]

Interestingly, this type of knife also appears on the National Museum of Scotland website, as coming from Malawi. H'mm, perhaps a rethink is required...

[Tim Simmons]

I can see how over generations of museum staff might perpetuate an original cataloging error, if this is the case? Future reference could then also be wrong. Having worked for the British Museum I know that not all ethnographic collection and donations {especially Africa ealier in the 20th century} were accurately recorded at the time of coming into collection, but often done many years later. This is a very confusing situation. The ram doa is surely an Asian artifact. What are we to make of the knives that are clearly derived from it, we cannot deny that?

[Gavin Nugent]

Tim, I think you were on the right path originally in this thread, meaning African.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

You also mention Ram Dao, but they are95% heavier forward curved weapons with the absence of such markings, nor are the markings to blade or hilt shared by other weapons of the regions of India or SEA.

Its hard to ignore the Kaskara stamp I presented when it looks so much like these;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma

There is also the pommel in post 56, page two here, nothing Asian in its shape;http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

I am certain Central Asia can be dismissed.

To better support the origins, those with them could subject the hilts to scientific examination, ie African or Asian ivory....of course one could refute the data says ivory was heavily traded but I think with all the information at hand the origins have been firmly placed for now and this may support Africa too.

If an Asian flavour is felt in this knife, which I see by profile, both the English and the Sikhs with them were heavily found in Burma...perhaps just an industrious Brit with other service abroad was making some coin on the side as it is not a pure African creation by style?

[ariel]

It is impossible to exclude outside influence, immigrant manufacturer or skills acquired elsewhere.
But let's agree that the place of production was in Malawi and that the construction is not purely SE Asian ( as per Andrew) and not Afghani.

I am even willing to go farther: the incredible uniformity of these knives, their radical distinctness from the traditional local examples and their closeness of dating may (may!) suggest a single shop, perhaps even short-lived.

[spiral]

I concur these occur from Malawi, & perhaps were made there under either British or Indian supervision.

There are many others of related style, but lesser quality, Ive just found on a English dealers for sale website.

Obviously I cant link to or post them here, due to forum rules.

But if anyone would like the photos of several others including some possibly of more primitive style, Then just send me an email at spiraltwista@aol.com & Ill forward the photos. {Put Yao in the email title, so they don't go to spam..}

spiral

[Richard G]

I'm in agreement with Spiral's original thoughts here. I once saw a similar knife described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, unfortunately, with no further detail. But this could explain a lot.
The "unafricanness", because of the Arab\Persian\Indian influence on the Swahili, indeed the presence of Arabs etc. on the East African coast.
The presence in Malawi, because of the trading links the Swahili had with the interior. Indeed places such as Tabora in Tanzania are described as originally "Arab" settlements, by which is meant coastal Swahili and followers. Any knife made there would be unlikely to follow the local African tradition. They do not even have to be trade items. Reading early journals of exploration in East and Central Africa one is struck by the incessant giving of presents ("hongo") necessary to get anywhere or anything done. Such a present could, and did, take the form of personal possessions and weaponry, if that is what the local chieftain desired.
The threads on Omani daggers have concluded, perhaps not with 100 o/o certainty, that many daggers collected in and attributed to Oman are in fact Saudi Arabian, which illustrates the danger of conflating the place of collection with the place of origin.
I would also like to mention the well known, but also slightly mysterious "Zanzibar" nimcha. This also doesn't seem to bear any relationship to any other sub-saharan African weapon, and although photo's can be found of Swahili Arabs with these or similar nimchas no one seems to know where they were actually made.
These knives and the Zanzibar nimcha are not common, but neither could you call them rare, thus I surmise they are a "type" rather than an individual manufacture. I would suggest a Swahili origin, being African but with very significant Asian influences would fit the bill.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

Certainly possible Richard, .....

More evidence required!

Any listed in pre.ww2 sales catalogue's anyone?

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I'm in agreement with Spiral's original thoughts here. I once saw a similar knife described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, unfortunately, with no further detail. But this could explain a lot.
The "unafricanness", because of the Arab\Persian\Indian influence on the Swahili, indeed the presence of Arabs etc. on the East African coast.
The presence in Malawi, because of the trading links the Swahili had with the interior. Indeed places such as Tabora in Tanzania are described as originally "Arab" settlements, by which is meant coastal Swahili and followers. Any knife made there would be unlikely to follow the local African tradition. They do not even have to be trade items. Reading early journals of exploration in East and Central Africa one is struck by the incessant giving of presents ("hongo") necessary to get anywhere or anything done. Such a present could, and did, take the form of personal possessions and weaponry, if that is what the local chieftain desired.
The threads on Omani daggers have concluded, perhaps not with 100 o/o certainty, that many daggers collected in and attributed to Oman are in fact Saudi Arabian, which illustrates the danger of conflating the place of collection with the place of origin.
I would also like to mention the well known, but also slightly mysterious "Zanzibar" nimcha. This also doesn't seem to bear any relationship to any other sub-saharan African weapon, and although photo's can be found of Swahili Arabs with these or similar nimchas no one seems to know where they were actually made.
These knives and the Zanzibar nimcha are not common, but neither could you call them rare, thus I surmise they are a "type" rather than an individual manufacture. I would suggest a Swahili origin, being African but with very significant Asian influences would fit the bill.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G.... In what capacity do you assume Omani Daggers originate in the Saudia Region? ... Did you look at my extensive thread Omani Khanjars? I cant recall mentioning any such thing. In fact it isn't true. They don't. What there is on research indicates that the Royal Khanjar and the Muscat Khanjar did a certain amount of migrating to Saudia in one case stepping stone to Saudia via the Yemen and in another probably linked via the big trade and slaver caravan camel trains to the eastern region of what is now KSA from Buraimi Oman. So far as I am aware ... no reverse influence occurred. The swords and Daggers are totally different suggesting that they developed independently in Oman centuries ago(in fact in both countries independant of each other and quite unrelated except in the 2 cases I have noted). However if you can suggest a link I would be delighted to investigate it.
I would imagine that the Nimcha you speak of from Zanzibar is well enough researched to point to manufacture and style variation related to other Nimchas as illustrated in Butin..in Forum Library. I think it unwise to rely upon photographs as you will find ...there aren't that many... something typically found in research in the Arab regions generally. Going beyond photos we rely on sketches ...but then when they run dry it is often traditional, passed down word of mouth which is almost impossible to prove ...and which has been totally ignored by all of the old explorers into the region..That then is the dilemma we run against in deep research here...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.