Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[Sajen]

I still have problems to believe that this knives are from Africa, museums are often wrong by descriptions.
Nepal could be a facility, look for example this ram-dao taken from this forum: http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...TID=29611&PN=3
See special the mark on the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

You guys are forgetting the colonial powers at play here...

[spiral]

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think there were deep (slave and ivory) expeeditions to the African interior organized from Zanzibar (under influence of Omani Arabs) in 19th century. In Stone Town you can find collection of mainly Congo weapons brought at that time

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by spiral

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

Interesting too are some connections. The Yao areas were Annexed by the Brits in the late 19th century, formally a little after. They too had Sikh soldiers in there as their forces....
Interesting are the blade marks on clearly African Weapons, i.e; the Kaskara and the axe of Tim's and also Jen's Tulwar...
There was a massive amount of trade throughout the regions...Yao hands may have made these but under direction of EU occupation I am sure.
With a guess for consideration too, the Malawi facial tattoos of the region in most cases, loosely bear a resemblance to the blade stamps on these knives.

[spiral]

Interesting stuff chaps!

Many of the NW & NWF type kukri bolster with the hidden rivet {of the same style as these knives.} were probably made by Sikhs....

Another factor as well as the possibility of Arab traders would be the Scottish based " African Lakes Company Limited" in 1878, to support missionaries & trade in ivory & store goods along the shores of Lake Nyasa and in the Lower Shire Valley in the late 1870s and early 1880s. They were heavily based on river transport.

They apparently wouldn't give the natives guns in trade {unlike the Arab slave & ivory buyers.} But I wonder if they had something, to do with these? Whether made locally, {which I doubt, but I could be wrong.} imported on made by imported labour... After all anywhere the British were the Indian traders & crafts people soon followed.

spiral

[Jampot10]

Yes Spiral - I have really enjoyed how this discussion has developed.

Arab influence in East Africa was huge from the mid 18th century onwards. Driven initially around the slave trade by the middle east Sultanates. If you look at Zanzibar for instance this was effectively controlled by the Sultan of Oman from around 1700 - 1890 when it became a British protectorate. Dar-Es- Salaam was originally an Arab built city in 1865. If they're building cities, I really can't see why these weapons couldn't have been produced by Arabs in Africa.

I do understand though why those with more knowledge than me point out that these are not normal blades associated with African tribal production.

Again open to interpretation but have a look at the pictures below, - the screen capture is Arabic script and the meaning of the word is "Attack" . Is it just me or is there similarity to the stamps on one of the blades ? Even if my translation is wrong it would seem to be Arabic script - maybe someone on the forum knows more ?

As a last thing I showed my knives to an established collector who lives in my village. The majority of this discussion has been about the Ivory one so far but his opinion was that the larger knife might actually be horn handled not wooden. This may well impact again on location of manufacture. Apparently there is a weapons event soon and my friend is going to take them up to show to his colleagues so this might generate more to talk about.
J