Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before.

If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time.

I don't have any answers in respect of this, and quite frankly, I don't have any idea where such answers might be found.

One of the repeated problems that I have found in trying to attach any reliable information in respect of belief in talismanic objects, or anything else for that matter, is that things that are often generally accepted as long standing beliefs passed down from the ancestors very often turn out to be no more than a generation or two old. Not only that, but individual informants often change direction depending on how they feel on the day.

In short, in respect of beliefs in Indonesia it is often best to qualify everything by statements that name the informant, place and time, something like:-

" on (date) I was told by (informant) that (this material) is regarded by (inhabitants of) this (place) as being very efficacious for
(whatever)" .

Ask the same person the same question next year the reply is likely to alter.

[David]

Well Gustav, i do apologize if you are having trouble understanding my statement. If it seems at all "lengthy" to you that is perhaps because i was sure to add words like "probably" in order to be sure no one considered my statement to be in any way a statement of "fact". I expressed an informed opinion bases upon my experience with available evidence. As such i would hardly consider such an opinion as being "reckless". I am also uncertain about your own meaning when you use the term "light minded", but i can assure you that i did indeed think about my opinion before posting it.
If you read my sentence carefully you will note that i never implied that an old version of this material used as a hilt does not exist, only that it is very rare. In fact i stated that somebody would probably now post one. So now you have fulfilled my statement by providing us with that example. No, it would not be the habit, then or even now i would image, for someone to simply pick up any old trash and create a hilt from it. Obviously the person who created the Sumatran hilt of which you speak valued the material when they made that hilt. Why would't they as we know it can be beautiful, especially when worked. But valuing a material does not necessarily equate to a belief that the material holds talismanic properties, nor does beauty alone. Of course the possibility exists that for the maker it did, but from my perspective it would be more irresponsible to assume that without more supportive evidence. Talismanic meaning in these cases usually is supported by some sort of community or societal agreement of the powers and uses of any given material. So if we saw more examples of these hilts from the time period i might be more likely to suspect that there was talismanic intent in their usage.
I hope that what is now indeed a lengthy response to your confusion clears up what i had originally believed was a fair simple expression of opinion.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before.

If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time.

Alan, I am sorry, but this is almost the same oppinion I stated in my post, which is absolutely understandable, becouse it is the relevant view on this subject.

Originally Posted by Gustav

Now to the material. I am absolutely not wondering myself about the fact, people in Central Java now or decades ago werent informed, what was going on somewhere in Sumatran highlands around 1880 regarding local beliefs on this strange and impractical, and rare material. I would say, they most probably didn't have the slightest interest in a thing, which were light years off from the refined esthetics of javanese courts.

Which sources do we have regarding Sumatran Minang beliefs from 1880-ties about minerals? Or - about Keris?

Where our opinions, or better, the information differs, is the fact, that oldest specimen you are aware of "is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900", and I know of one, which is most probably collected before 1876 (1886 was my tiping mistake), absolutely sure before 1893. It makes a dentist drill as a premise for the emergence of hilts from this material rather implausible.

[VANDOO]

I AGREE THAT THE USE OF THIS FOSSIL MATERIAL IN BALI FOR MAKING KERIS IS A FAIRLY RECENT DEVELOPMENT. KNIFE MAKERS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR SOME NEW MATERIAL TO MAKE KNIVES OUT OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE OR EXOTIC THE BETTER. WHEN EVER A NEW MATERIAL IS FOUND EVERYONE WANTS SOME ESPECIALLY IF IT SELLS WELL. SO MOST OF WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS A REFLECTION OF THIS RECENT FAD AND THERE IS LIKELY NO OLD TRADITIONAL BELIEFS ,JUST RECENT STORIES MADE UP FOR SALES PURPOSES.

THE ABILITY TO CARVE STONE DOES GO BACK WAY BEYOND THE ADVENT OF THE DENTISTS DRILL AND VERY ANCIENT LAPIDARY TOOLS HAVE BEEN USED EVEN BY EARLY MAN IN THE STONE AGE. JADE ONE OF THE TOUGHEST STONES HAS BEEN CARVED IN MANY COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. MANY ARTIFACTS HAVE BEEN FOUND MADE BY THOSE WHO HUNTED THE MAMMOTH OFTEN OUT OF BONE, IVORY AND TOOTH FRAGMENTS. SOME ARE JUST TOOLS BUT SOME ARE TALISMANS OR OBJECTS OF ART ASSOCIATED WITH THE HUNTERS AND THEIR PREY. TALES OF DRAGONS, GIANTS AND OTHER MYTHICAL GODS AND BEASTS ABOUND THRUOUT HUMAN HISTORY SO THESE BELIEFS AND SUPERSTITIONS HAVE EXISTED BUT ARE NOW VERY CHANGED AND MOSTLY LOST. MAN'S CURIOSITY ASSURES THAT STRANGE AND UNKNOWN OBJECTS WOULD HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST AND QUESTIONS ASKED AND STORIES MADE UP TO EXPLAIN THEM SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. SO SOME OF THESE STRANGE OBJECTS WERE LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO A HUNTER OR WARRIORS ATTIRE AND PERHAPS WEAPONS. THERE ARE LIKELY SOME EXAMPLES OF OLD SWORDS USING THIS FOSSIL MATERIAL FROM DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS AND REGIONS OF THE WORLD STILL AROUND BUT THEY WOULD LIKELY BE FEW IN NUMBER. FOR EXAMPLE I REMEMBER A POST ON MEDIEVAL SWORDS WITH A AMMONITE FOSSIL MOUNTED IN THE POMMEL ON THE FORUM.
LIKE THE CLASSIFICATION OF ANTIQUE NOW AT 100 YEARS OLD, THE CLASSIFICATION OF FOSSIL MAY HAVE A DATE BUT I THINK THEY EXAGGERATE WHEN THEY REFER TO ME AS A OLD FOSSIL.
MINERALIZATION OCCURS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS DEPENDING ON THE ENVIRONMENT. I WOULD CONSIDER A MAMMOTH TUSK FROM SIBERIA AND ONE FROM TEXAS BOTH FOSSILS. THE ONE FROM SIBERIA WOULD STILL BE CLOSE TO THE WAY IT WAS IN LIFE AND COULD STILL BE WORKED. WHILE THE ONE FROM TEXAS WOULD BE CHANGED TO MINERAL AND BE FRAGILE CHALK AND NO LONGER USEFUL. BOTH COULD BE THE SAME AGE BUT DUE TO THE ENVIRONMENT VERY DIFFERENT MATERIALS. PERHAPS SOME MUSEUM HAS A OLD STONE KNIFE FITTED WITH MAMMOTH IVORY OR TOOTH IN ITS COLLECTIONS, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

[A. G. Maisey]

One of my flaws is that I tend to suffer from the Mark Twain syndrome:- I lack the ability to express myself clearly in only a few words. I recognise that I suffer from this defect of ability, so it really is inexcusable when I dash off a few lines and expect others to understand clearly what I mean. But still, I do this from time to time, and it looks as if my post #23 is one such occasion.

Gustav:-

My statement as quoted was in support of your statement, it was not in opposition.

In respect of the time frame. The second half of the 19th century is not very long ago. Most especially in many areas of the Indonesian Archipelago the late 1800's could be regarded as being on the fringes of European influence. Even in Bali where a policy of active exclusion of outsiders was practiced, technology was not necessarily excluded from consideration.

My personal perspective is that probably any time after about 1800 most developed areas of the Indonesian Archipelago were already on the fringes of European technological culture. I do not regard the 1800's as a part of the distant past.

Barry:-

My mention of dentist's drills was a generality that was intended to imply all means known in the geographic area concerned for the carving of hard materials.

At the present time craftsmen in Jawa & Bali use all sorts of electric grinders:- die grinders, dremels, bench mounted electric drills, and of course dentists drills. These are examples I have seen in use, but undoubtedly other such tools exist that are put to use carving hard materials.

Historically in Jawa, Bali and I guess other parts of Indonesia, grinders that were powered by a long springy sapling and operated by a foot treadle were used for carving hard materials. This sort of power grinder goes back at the very least to early colonial times, but it was still being used in Bali in 1982.

If we are talking about a relatively settled area of the Indonesian Archipelago after the mid-1800's, then a treadle driven dentist drill is most certainly not out of the question as a tool that was available to advanced craftsmen.

Sumatera was not as developed in a lot of ways as was Jawa, but although thick forest made land transport difficult at that time, sea and river transport was freely available, and the centres of administration were well established.

If we consider Minangkabau lands in particular, what we know is that the men of the Minangkabau were traders who moved across established trade routes that took them far afield. The Minangkabau people are historically very well educated, very progressive and intellectually aggressive. Technology in Minangkabau lands would have been no stranger.

Yes, in various locations very hard materials have been carved at various times, and in the far distant past, but we are not talking about Mesoamerica, nor China, nor India. We are talking about the Indonesian Archipelago, and to the best of my knowledge the extremely lengthy techniques involved in carving crystal skulls and jade artefacts were not employed amongst the peoples of this geographic location.

There is another factor in play here that I'd like to address also.

This pervasive and oft encountered idea that all materials, all decorative motifs , all artistic endeavour must be endowed with some sort of talismanic quality.

This is simply not the case.

As Barry has pointed out, new and unusual, and attractive materials are frequently used in the production of artefacts merely for their own inherent qualities.

Motifs are developed and used for purely decorative purposes.

Certainly, traditional motifs may at one time have had some talismanic or symbolic intent, but with the passing of time this original meaning is lost and the motif continues to be used for purely decorative purposes. This applies in all cultures and societies that have moved past the developmental stage that saw the need for symbolic or talismanic intent.

I apologise for writing at length on such insignificant matters, but hopefully what I have written above will not be misunderstood.

[Battara]

Although I now have shifted to the regular ethnographic forum due to the Philippine reference, I still appreciate the help you folks have provided me. I agree that most for the fossil molar I have seen has been used for newer pieces.

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Hi! everyone
the mollar handle from the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, Alan was talking about.