Opinions please

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you David.

I'm not sure that Gronemann's idea of a "good keris" came from the fact that he was a European, but rather, he had seen what the ruling elite considered to be a "good keris", he was working with kraton makers, and he attempted to provide the material that these makers needed to be able to continue to produce what their lords wanted.

Yes, undoubtedly he considered the high contrast pamor a characteristic of a "good keris", but this was because he had seen this characteristic in the keris that he had been told by both the elites and the makers, were good keris.

He was undoubtedly influential in the later perception of the keris in Europe, so this idea of high contrast pamor being a characteristic of a good keris flowed from him to the interested people outside Jawa.

However, he only passed on what he had learnt, and perhaps he did not get the full story. What has been impressed upon me many times by keris conscious people in Solo is that within the Surakarta ethic, garap, that is, craftsmanship, is given much greater weight in the appraisal of a keris than is the colour of the pamor, if any exists at all.

Whether this same value applied at Gronemann's time, I really do not know, but I feel that it very likely did, as I have never seen even slightly inferior garap in keris that has been attributed to a known mpu of the 19th through early 20th century.

I do understand your unwillingness to state an opinion that you cannot support. I've already said that I'm not able to do this --- which is a pity --- but too often I've said or written something that is really only a thought for further examination and then had it quoted back to me as one of my firm opinions. It just wastes too much of my time trying to explain exactly what I meant when I made the statement in the first place. Probably you also get all those private emails that want to argue about half formed ideas.

You have asked what I hope to gain from this line of enquiry. Valid question.
I was hoping to gain a couple of things:-

Firstly I wanted to get some sort of an idea about the way that people who were not specialist scholars, but rather more or less generalist collectors, thought about and saw the keris within the context of the society and culture from whence it came.

In other words, the perception of these people of the perception of the Javanese people.

This is something that can definitely be argued as being right or wrong, there is an enormous volume of work that has been done on the characteristics and attitudes of the Javanese people, their culture and their society, so if anybody stated something that was obviously wrong in the opinions of the authorities in this area of knowledge, it could generate a lengthy debate.

This was the reason for the rider that in this thread there is no right and no wrong, only opinions. In other words, no debates. If we differ in opinion, simply state the different opinion and let both opinions stand, don't try to prove that one is right, and the other is wrong. We're not scoring points here.

The second thing I had hoped to gain is relative to the idea of the keris gaining more and more attributes as it moves through time. In my "Interpretation" article I stated a hypothesis of what I believed the Modern Keris to be at the moment of its appearance in Javanese culture. Put very simply, it was an hierarchical indicator with the character of a religious icon. Its use was limited to people who formed a part of the hierarchy of the Karaton of Majapahit.

Now, perhaps the first characteristic that the keris acquired from outside influence was its spread from an elite group of people where it had a very specific purpose to a broader group of people who did not understand much about it all.

These people were the traders and merchants who lived in enclaves along the North Coast of Jawa. It is on record that these people, many of whom were either foreigners or first generation descendants of foreigners, copied the style, ways, and dress of the Majapahit Karaton. They adopted the keris and began wearing it, copying the style of the lords of the Majapahit Karaton.

We must not forget, that some of the princes and lords of the kraton were also traders and merchants who were in competition with the people from outside Jawa. These Javanese traders would certainly have known the relevance of the keris, but the foreigners could not have known much at all. They simply copied:- monkey see : monkey do.

The keris then spread from the traders and merchants to lesser people, those who could afford a keris copied the leaders of their society, but these lesser people knew nothing of the relevance of the keris to the kraton hierarchy.

Then eventually Islam replaced the old Hindu-Buddhist Javanese society, original understandings were lost, new understandings were generated.

So, here is what I presently see as the first attribute of the keris that came from outside Javanese society and that produced a new way for the Javanese people to perceive the keris:- from being a hierarchical indicator of the elites, with the nature of a religious icon, it became a characteristic of Javanese dress, something that was worn and used by anybody who could afford it.

Now, we have all these other attributes. Are any of them attributes that might have come from outside Javanese culture, or been generated by ideas from outside Javanese culture, or generated as a reaction to influences from outside Javanese culture?

These questions are constantly running at the back of my mind, and have been for as long as I can remember. What I am now seeking are the ideas of other people. I acknowledge that it may require a little bit of concentrated thought and perhaps a smidgen of research to generate those ideas, so what I'm really trying to do is get people sufficiently interested to take a more or less serious approach to their declared interest:- the keris.

[Jussi M.]

Colonial influence can be alikened to a degree as "Western influence".

Which brings us to Western Magic: technology. Mind you - when the previous Pope of the Catholic Church died a few years ago much less was written about it in contrast to when the previous Boss at Apple Computers - Steve Jobs died. Such is the power of the Technological Cult we are all part of.

So I´d reason that the forthcoming of firearms, railways etc must had influenced the Javanese at large and thus also their relationship with the Keris as well.

How, I raelly dont know, but common sense would dictate that, that the arrival and adoption of the Western Magic of technology must had eaten away some of the fabric of the indegenious belief system. Mind you - I am not saying that the Javanese were not technologically savvy - I am saying that their technology came to co-exist with the Western. Thus change happened.

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your contribution Jussi.

Yes, the ways in which European ideas of "magic" might have influenced Javanese perceptions of not only the keris, but also of other aspects of Javanese life is something that as far as I know has not been subjected to close investigation.

I'm thinking here of traditional European attitudes towards what we commonly regard as "magic". Don't forget that the early European contacts were a long time ago (16th century) and magic was still alive and well in Europe at that time and for a long time thereafter.

I have sometimes played with the idea that a lot of so-called magic associated with the keris was actually a Dutch perception that flowed back into Javanese society. Javanese attitudes towards outsiders and those who are hierarchically superior to them are well documented, briefly you tell these people what you think they want to hear. From long personal experience, I can vouch for it that this attitude is still very much a part of the Javanese character.

Then the technology came along, which as you point out must have had some effect. But what? Perhaps this technological invasion may have had no more effect than to facilitate supply of materials. The Javanese may have a magical world view, but that world view does not exclude a very pragmatic approach to achieving their ends.

Firearms? The Javanese were not strangers to firearms. I do not know when firearms were first used in Jawa, but under Sultan Agung (1614-1645) 800 pandais were put to work under the leadership of 8 mpus, in order to prepare weapons for the attack on the Dutch in Batavia. These weapons included massive canons.

I do understand that a lot of people hesitate to read history, mostly because it is seen as deadest dry and boring, but Javanese history is pretty much like reading a history of the Mafia:- it is full of murder, blood, double crosses, and torture. Its good stuff.

Here is a little snippet of Javanese history that demonstrates that except for Javanese duplicity Jawa may well have become a tributary state of China, with the consequential effect of a type of colonial influence from China. It is about the time when Kublai Khan attempted to invade Jawa.

In the 13th century the Mongols attempted to invade Jawa. Kublai Khan had sent emissaries to Singhasari to ask for tribute. King Kertanegara of Singhasari took offense at this and decided that he had been insulted, so he branded the faces of the emissaries and cut off their ears, sent them back to China.

Well, Kublai in turn was insulted by this action, so he put together a force to invade Jawa and punish Kertanegara. Big force, 1000 ships, 30,000 men. Kublai wasn't going to screw around with this impudent little crud Kertanegara, he was going to wipe the floor with him.

When the invaders reached Jawa they found that Kertanegara had already been killed and replaced by Jayakatwang, who had been the ruler of a tributary state, Kediri.

Raden Wijaya was Ketanegara's son-in-law, and thought he had a pretty good claim to be the next ruler of Singhasari. So Raden Wijaya made the Mongol commanders an offer that they couldn't refuse:- he'd help the Mongols defeat Jayakatwang and swear allegiance to the Great Khan, if the Mongols would help him get his kingdom back.

Great deal. Everybody wins. Except of course Jayakatwang.

One thing that the Mongols did not understand was that the Javanese fought in a completely different way, and held completely different values to those of the Mongols. Without taking another 5000 words to put down all of the twists and turns to this story, in brief, Raden Wijaya double crossed the Mongols after Jayakatwang was defeated. He attacked the Mongol forces, who retreated to their ships and sailed back to China, taking the captured Kertanegara with them, who was killed on the voyage back to China.

Raden Wijaya was obviously a bloke with pretty big ideas. Today he would probably be the CEO of a major tech company, or maybe a bank, but back in 13th century Jawa those two opportunities were not available, so what did he do after kicking the Mongols off Jawa?

He founded a kingdom:- Majapahit.

Majapahit is seen by the Javanese as the Golden Age of Jawa. Not dissimilar to the way in which the British see the Arthurian age and its legends.

I started this thread to try to extract some ideas from other people who have an interest in the keris, but as it has developed I am getting the feeling that here is an opportunity to try to raise the interest of my fellow students of the keris in delving into the fields of history, sociology and anthropology in order to gain a better understanding of the keris. As the understanding develops, so will the ideas.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, the ways in which European ideas of "magic" might have influenced Javanese perceptions of not only the keris, but also of other aspects of Javanese life is something that as far as I know has not been subjected to close investigation.

I'm thinking here of traditional European attitudes towards what we commonly regard as "magic". Don't forget that the early European contacts were a long time ago (16th century) and magic was still alive and well in Europe at that time and for a long time thereafter.

I have sometimes played with the idea that a lot of so-called magic associated with the keris was actually a Dutch perception that flowed back into Javanese society. Javanese attitudes towards outsiders and those who are hierarchically superior to them are well documented, briefly you tell these people what you think they want to hear. From long personal experience, I can vouch for it that this attitude is still very much a part of the Javanese character.

Then the technology came along, which as you point out must have had some effect. But what? Perhaps this technological invasion may have had no more effect than to facilitate supply of materials. The Javanese may have a magical world view, but that world view does not exclude a very pragmatic approach to achieving their ends.

Alan, you may have understood Jussi's comment, but i think you kind of side step it in your reply. I believe the "magic" he is talking about is not the magical belief systems of the Javanese people or even the concepts of magic that might have been imposed upon Jawa by early European colonialists, but rather the "magic" of modern technology that is now all pervasive throughout the world. If we are going to talk about "magic" i believe that we need to come to some consensus of definition. I tend to use the Crowleyian definition which sees magick (with a "K" to differentiate it from stage magic) as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." This definition includes the mundane as well as more ritual approaches to magick. So really the simple act a flipping a light switch in order to light a room is an act of magick. This may no longer seem like a magickal act to us in what is now our very highly technological world, but in essence it is. We now live in a world that is overrun with high technology and its presence and influence grows exponentially every day (or minute ). But even one hundred and fifty years ago the Western colonizers were introducing new technologies to the people of Jawa that have to have had an effect on their world view and understandings of their own magickal universe and, therefore, their own view of the keris. And as Arthur C. Clarke once wrote, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Regarding blacksmithing, just about every culture has regarded it as a magickal act for some period, turning ore and base metal into useful tools and weapons through an act of will by the smith. Metal workers were often looked upon as magicians or alchemists by the common folk who did not possess their knowledge of the craft. It is, in fact, impossible for me personally to view the act of creating a keris as anything but a magickal act even without considering the ritual magick aspect of prays, mantras and other magickal intentions that were placed into the keris while working the metal into a dagger. The Dutch colonist's perception of this magickal act may have been somewhat different from the Javanese in specifics, but i would find it hard to believe that the Javanese culture did not have a very strong sense that the mpu's work was indeed a magickal art in its essence long before any contact was made with the West.

[A. G. Maisey]

Possibly David, possibly.

What I actually wrote, and what Jussi picked up on was this:-

"Yes, the ways in which European ideas of "magic" might have influenced Javanese perceptions of not only the keris, but also of other aspects of Javanese life is something that as far as I know has not been subjected to close investigation."

I used inverted commas around the word magic, because I was talking about the European concepts of magic rather than the way in which Javanese people understand parallel concepts.

In Javanese the word for what we think of as stage magic is "sulap", and actually it has the sense of sleight of hand.

The word for black magic is "sihir" , which is from the Arabic, it is not an indigenous word, and I believe that in the Arabic it actually means asking for help from demons or evil spirits to harm somebody, essentially it is what people in European societies think of as "black magic". This word does not appear in Old Javanese, so it is a pretty recent way of looking at the idea of using the dark forces of the Hidden World.

Those Javanese who have been influenced by Western Culture probably now have concepts of magic that are not much different from the concepts of magic held by lay people in European societies, but the indigenous Javanese concepts relating to what Europeans might think of as magic are quite different to these.

I believe it goes without saying that we can automatically exclude stage magic, or sulap, from consideration. In fact, when I wrote the word "magic" it didn't even occur to me that there is something called stage magic, I guess because I never think of these performances in these terms.

So yes, I did sort of sidestep Jussi's reference to the magic of technology, simply because I did not really want to write thousands of words in trying to explain why the Javanese would never confuse technological advancement with their own ideas of supernatural forces, any more than they would confuse the working of supernatural forces with sleight of hand. Javanese people simply do not think in this way.


When the Europeans first came to Jawa they came into contact with an advanced culture, a culture that had had contact with the civilisations of China and India for over 1000 years. The Javanese were already familiar with the technology that these Indian and Chinese civilisations used, and they had adopted some of this technology for themselves.

After the industrial revolution in Europe, when technology took off and we saw the move to the cities in the British Isles and Western Europe, the Javanese had already been in close contact with the Dutch and other Europeans, for well over 100 years. We could comfortably liken the situation of the Javanese to the situation of Europeans who were living in rural areas of Britain, or perhaps France or Italy:- remote from daily contact with advanced technology, but certainly not unfamiliar with its existence.

In our own time we have seen the appearance on the scene of personal computers.

My first real job was in the data processing section of a major government organisation. Around 80 or 100 girls putting holes into little cards, other girls reading those cards, others working on comptometers (machines for mathematical calculation), a mostly male administrative staff of perhaps 30 people, over 6000 square feet of floor space. At the time, mid-1950's, this was an advanced information technology --- even though it originated in the 18th century and what we were using in the mid-1950's probably hadn't changed all that much since about 1920.

These days I carry greater computing capacity in my briefcase, than was available from all those old IBM machines and the enormous staff required to operate them.

This is truly magic --- or very rapid technological advancement --- but it didn't stun me as it developed, I knew it was happening, I saw it coming, as did any educated person in our society.

I believe that the Javanese who saw the introduction of European technology to Jawa during the 19th century would have had a similar attitude. At least the educated ones would have. Farmers and other people who were out of the mainstream in rural backwaters would probably be somewhat more amazed, but I have not encountered any evidence that would suggest that any Javanese would have confused advanced technology with the magic associated with his own unseen world.

The Javanese of any time after European contact were not primitive natives who had no concept of the happenings in the world outside Jawa. They were members of an advanced culture, and could probably be regarded as living on the fringes of the civilised world.

They could very certainly differentiate between technology with which they were not familiar, and the essence of the Unseen World. However, the way in which a Javanese person would regard the Unseen World and those things attributable to it, should not be confused with the way in which a person of Western European heritage would think of "magic".

But if we do a fast forward to the 20th century, what we begin to see, I think, is the attitudes of educated Javanese people toward the keris mirroring the mystical/magical view of Western Europeans. When I am sometimes confronted by this I cannot help but ask myself where these ideas came from.

I know I did use the word "magic", but I used this word as something associated with European ideas. In truth, I try in so far as is possible to avoid the use of this word in respect of the keris or of other aspects of Javanese society and culture. In the European mindset the keris can possibly be thought of as a "magical" thing in some ways, but in the Javanese mindset the relevant ideas simply do not translate in any way as any type of magic that a European could readily understand.

This is a bit like trying to understand the indigenous Javanese ideas associated with what happens to the human essence after death. People of European heritage simply do not have a frame of reference to allow them to understand.

Now, when we consider death from the indigenous Javanese point of view, we come very close to a similar way in which the old Javanese people thought about the powers of the worker in the forge. The concept of death embodies the concept of rebirth. Anybody from any agricultural based society anywhere in the world is unable to escape from this idea:- things die, and they are reborn next season. The society of Jawa is an agriculturally based society.

The idea of death embraces the idea of rebirth, thus death is only a part of life, for life to exist, death must also exist.

The worker in the forge fulfils a similar function:- he takes iron that is dead and he turns it into something that is living, but this living piece of iron will eventually perish, only to be renewed again. The iron changes, but it does not disappear, its form alters, but it is only waiting to be brought back to life by the worker in the forge.

This is not magic. It is simply the way in which the world functions, and its there for everybody to see, all they need to do is to look.

Candi Sukuh on Mt. Lawu is possibly associated with this relationship between the forge worker (pandai, mpu), and the renewal of souls.(O'Connor).

But here we are specifically looking at the keris, and trying to consider how the ways in which Javanese people regard the keris might have been influenced by ideas and concepts that came into Javanese society from outside Javanese society.

For example, traditionally the Javanese gentry have regarded the keris as a store of wealth. When did this attitude start to appear in Javanese society? Is it possible to identify any of the possible causes for its appearance in Javanese society?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The worker in the forge fulfills a similar function:- he takes iron that is dead and he turns it into something that is living, but this living piece of iron will eventually perish, only to be renewed again. The iron changes, but it does not disappear, its form alters, but it is only waiting to be brought back to life by the worker in the forge.

This is not magic. It is simply the way in which the world functions, and its there for everybody to see, all they need to do is to look.

Sorry Alan, but i maintain that is exactly what magic is, again, "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will." Magick is a part of the natural world. Seeing magick is about looking for it. Now my world view on magick has been heavily influenced by the very European magickal lodges of the late 18th and 19th centuries and their philosophies on the subject. I suppose that the general European populous may have had a somewhat different viewpoint on the subject. But i believe that the European idea of magick that came from within European magickal societies (actual occult philosophies not generally accepted or even considered by the mundane citizen) was not so far from the Javanese concept of magick as you might think.
It was not my intention to bring the concept of stage magic into the conversation at all. Of course we are not discussing that. I was simply explaining the use of the spelling "magicK" to differentiate it from common stage magic. Nor when i speak of magick am i in any way referring to either European or Javanese ideas about "black" magic.
I am quite aware that the Javanese were not primitive people and would not be fooled by advanced technologies of the Europeans. I quite agree that as technology grows slowly before you it does not shock, surprise or fool you by its progress. This still does not mean that Western technology (and the culture, products want to, ideals and desires it brought with it) has not affected how Indonesians view the keris. The more that Javanese society has become influenced my modern technology and the information age, the more i believe they have moved away from their world view of the seen and unseen worlds. This world view is probably seen more like superstition with each proceeding generation.
I find it interesting that you have tried to draw me into this discussion repetitively stating that there are no "rights" or "wrongs" on this issue, yet you seem to find fault in my opinion anyway.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, if I have offended you I most sincerely apologise.

I extend my apology further if you have perceived my statement of opinion as a statement that finds fault with your opinion.

You have put forward your opinion, I have put forward my opinion, as I have stated more than once, in this thread there are no rights and no wrongs.

My objective is to try to draw out the opinions of all those who have an opinion, if this thread were to deteriorate into a point scoring match this would discourage people from floating their opinions. Thus, it began as, and as far as I am concerned, it remains simply a place to put forward an opinion.

Nobody is necessarily right, and nobody is necessarily wrong.

Just opinions.

The point I was trying to make, and that I apparently failed to do, is that the Javanese may have a concept that a European would regard as magic, but the Javanese perception of that concept would be not be similar to the European perception. The Javanese person would think about the idea in a different way to the way in which the European person would think about the same idea.

To a degree I've dug my own grave here, by straying into commenting on an area of keris belief and Javanese belief that I am usually very careful to avoid, except in face to face discussion with people who have the background that permits them to accept as understood many of the ideas associated with this area of Javanese culture.

I have absolutely no problem at all with you, or anybody else considering some of the things about the keris, and about Javanese culture as being either "magick", or "magic". This is an individual prerogative.

In fact, the Javanese word "sihir" is very close to the Oxford definition of magic, but that Javanese word is not an indigenous Javanese word, and does not represent an indigenous Javanese concept that can be applied to the keris.

However, many of the ideas that both enthusiasts outside and inside Jawa now apply to the keris do come within the ambit of the Oxford definition of "magic".

So, to return to the main thrust of this thread:- where might some of these ideas have come from, and why?

Did "sihir" enter the language along with Sufism?

David, again I apologise for any offense , negation, insult or criticism which you may find in my comments, please be assured, I am not attacking you, I am merely stating my opinion, which you are welcome to accept or reject as you see fit.

Edit

I probably should mention that when I think about magic within the Western European framework, I am thinking in terms of the folk ideas of magic, the ideas of magic held by the common people that have been handed down to them by their ancestors, and represented in the English language by the Oxford definition.
I do not have the specialist knowledge necessary to presume to comment of the ideas of Aleister Crowley's "magick".

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

...
Which brings us to Western Magic: technology. Mind you - when the previous Pope of the Catholic Church died a few years ago much less was written about it in contrast to when the previous Boss at Apple Computers - Steve Jobs died. Such is the power of the Technological Cult we are all part of.
...

rome was founded as a sacred city 2700+ years ago and has theologically and thaumaturgically remained much the same since. the names of the roman pontifex maximus change, but they remain the leader of the roman priesthood. the names of the gods change, their pantheon of minor gods and metaphysical beings have name changes, but most of the ceremonies are much the same. the annual procession of the earth mother goddess around rome still occurs, they just call her 'mary' now. 'vestal virgins' (nuns) abound, processions of the minor gods (saints) still occur, and like the roman emperors, men (especially ex-pontifex maximii) and women can become minor gods (saints). if anything the christianization enshrined the system and made it less tolerant and less accepting of other religions outside the now fixed roman rite.