Opinions please

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2014, 01:53 AM

Timo, you have answered my question with a question, and I can give you a direct response:-

Yes.

But why?

There has probably been more nonsense spoken and written about the keris than about any other edged weapon, or cultural icon. The reasons for this are many and complex, but what we do know is that the nature of the keris has continually changed over the more than 1000 years of its existence.

The core of keris culture, and its place of origin is Jawa. Jawa is also the place of keris culture that has been subjected to the greatest degree of continuous influence by factors from outside Javanese society.

For anybody to understand the keris and its place in Javanese culture that person must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people themselves understand the keris. This is not to say that an outsider must understand the keris in the same way as it is understood in the varying layers of Javanese society, but the outsider must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris. Thus, an understanding of an understanding, or perhaps an understanding of a number of understandings.

For this understanding of an outsider to develop it is necessary to address many aspects of the keris presence in Jawa. During the period of existence of the Modern Keris those two greatest outside influences on Javanese society have been Islam and the presence of Europeans along with their colonial ambitions.

Therefore it would seem to be of vital importance for the serious student of the keris to attempt to gain some insight into the way in which these two outside influences of Islam and the Europeans contributed to the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris.

GIO · 9th October 2014, 11:19 AM

Thanks for your reply, Alan
Could the size of the kerises depend upon the availability of iron in the various areas ? I think that the possibility of finding iron and nickel/iron was a major problem.

Sajen · 9th October 2014, 05:41 PM

Hello Alan,

you ask a not easy to answer question, special regarding the influence of the Islam upon the the Javanese cultural perception of the keris since I know not enough about the Javanese cultural perception of the keris before Islam coming to Java.
But frankly said I think that this influence wasn't so great like others maybe think. By my first visit on Java 1992 I was surprised, special in Central and East Java, about the very own interpretation of Islam on Java. This changed in the time until now but I think that this can be neglect regarding your question. The outer appearance of the keris may have changed by Islamic influence but nothing else. I may be completley wrong so I would like to read your own opinion about this.
The colonial influence was much greater IMHO since middle of last century the "keris culture" was nearly moribund. This was prevent again by outside influence by only a few persons like yourself and Dietrich Drescher who has had a great effect that the keris forging don't died. Again, I could be completely wrong by my statement and would like to read your own opinion about this.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2014, 10:27 PM

Thanks for your contribution Detlef.

Yes, it is far from an easy question, and this is the reason that I asked it.

Perhaps any statement of opinion needs to begin with a statement that clarifies one's understanding of the way(s) in which Javanese society perceives the keris at the present time.

Then perhaps it may be possible to unravel the various current perceptions and attempt to form some sort of opinion on how these current perceptions might have arisen.

Detlef, you have made a very valid point when you identify the need for a baseline that puts the keris into a pre-Islamic, pre-European contact setting. Once this baseline has been established it then might become possible to identify the changing nature of the keris throughout time, and possibly speculate upon reasons for these changes. Obviously this cannot be done in the absence of at least some relevant knowledge. Perhaps my "Interpretation" article might be of some assistance in helping to form an understanding of the possible baseline.

Detlef, I currently have a number of opinions about the changing nature of the keris in Jawa, but I will not state those opinions until such time as I can support them. The reason I have put this question up for everybody to take a shot at is to try to understand how broadly interested people in the world outside Jawa understand the Javanese perception of the keris.

It may help to form opinions if we look at some of the facets of the Javanese keris.

It is a weapon, a personal talisman, a family inheritance, a work of art, a store of wealth, an item of formal dress, it has religious associations, it is a symbol of its custodian, an hierarchical indicator, a symbol of its culture, an endorsement of the right to rule --- and that is the short list.

Did all these things apply at the moment of its appearance in Javanese society, or did it gradually accumulate some of these attributes as time passed?

If the attributes were gradually accumulated, is it possible to identify factors that may have caused an attribute to be attached to the keris?

These are the sort of things that we need to consider in order to form opinions that could be used to respond to my question.

As you say Detlef:- not an easy question.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2014, 10:31 PM

Yes Giovanni, the availability of materials at times in the past could have been a factor, however, perhaps not as great a problem as we might think. In Bali the Pandai Caste was and is powerful within Balinese society. The members of the Pandai Cast are workers in iron, and they are spread throughout the Balinese society. There were long standing trade links with China, there was iron smelting going on in Jawa, and I think probably Bali too, at least the beach sands in many places would seem to be suitable for production of iron.

So, yes, material could have been a factor, but perhaps not quite so much as we might think.

EDIT

Something we must always remember in this context of availability of any type of materials to areas of SE Asia is that there was a well established trade network throughout SE Asia, and even as far as Madagascar, China, and interestingly, Northern Australia, that in some cases extended back as far as the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. There was nickel bearing iron being exported from Luwu in Sulawesi from at least the time of Majapahit.

SE Asia may have been unknown territory to Europeans prior to first contact, but it was certainly no unknown territory to the people of India, China and the Middle East, let alone the people of Maritime SE Asia.

Jean · 10th October 2014, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Perhaps any statement of opinion needs to begin with a statement that clarifies one's understanding of the way(s) in which Javanese society perceives the keris at the present time.

Just a personal testimony dating from the nineties during my stay in East Kalimantan:
Most of my Indonesian colleagues were highly educated people (engineers) and of javanese origin. They were quite surprised about my interest for the kris, a number of them had family krisses but they did not seem to give them much attention, and none of them ever showed me one of their krisses.
I was told that since recently, some Muslim extremists in Java require the people to get rid of their krisses as the worshipping of the kris is contrary to islamic principles but I don't know if this is correct and widely applied.
Regards

David · 10th October 2014, 07:59 PM

I will qualify my statements by saying that i really have no idea of the inner beliefs of Javanese (or Indonesian) society regarding the keris. I have never been there and have no real direct contacts that can valid anything i might believe on the subject. My understanding of the keris, what a "good" keris might be, is dictated more by my understanding of how international collectors view the keris.
It is clear to me that Islam as it has existed in Indonesia is its own variation on the theme and has absorbed quite a bit of local (both pre-Islamic and pre-Hindu) belief along its doctrines. If extremists are now trying to turn Indonesians away from the keris i am not convinced that is yet the norm and i would rather not turn this into a discussion or debate on current politics and religious extremism. Islam in Indonesia seems to have embraced the keris over the centuries and embed it with its own sense of Islamic mystical thinking. It seems likely that a good deal of the original Hindu-influenced symbolic intent of the keris has been replaced with its Islamic counterparts over the centuries of Islamic influence. So how Indonesians relate to the keris must have certainly changed in some regard over the years because of this.
Regarding the physicality of the keris i am less certain that the establishment of an Islamic culture made that many changes to the over all design. Yes, certainly we saw figurative hilts morph into abstract representation in certain areas around the archipelago. Interestingly enough though, a ban on figurative hilts does not really seem to have been put into effect in Jawa. I don't see that Islamic culture did that much to change the blade itself though. Yes, over the centuries we see the development of more complex pamor pattern, but this seems more a natural evolution than one dictated by religious philosophy. The same can probably be said about dhapurs. If anything affected the blade construction itself i would have to say colonial influence has. It seems to me that it was Europeans like Isaac Groneman who put an emphasis on the desirability of the high contrast silvery pamor he noted on upper level court pieces and made that the bar to be reached for a "good" keris. In 1904 Groneman wrote:
‘The pamor material for the kris smiths connected to the courts of Yogyakarta and Surakarta originates from an iron meteorite that fell to earth at the end of the eighteenth century in the neighbourhood of the Prambanan temple complex. The meteorite was excavated and transported to the kraton of Surakarta. From that time on, the weapon smiths of the Vorstenlanden used small pieces of meteoric iron to produce the pamor pattern in their krisses, pikes and other status weapons. After etching the blade with acidic substances, it is the small percentage of nickel always presents in meteoric iron that causes the characteristic silvery pattern that faintly lights up against a background of iron or steel that has become darkly coloured by the effect of the acids. However, the supply of meteoric iron, already scarce and expensive, will gradually become exhausted. The petty weapon smiths and their assistants who now and then receive a commission from their noble clients – they are becoming fewer and fewer – are poor and consequently can no longer pay for their raw materials. The Javanese weapon smiths are destitute. By making a kris, they do not earn more than starvation wages. Their trade threatens to become extinct if nothing changes. However, the solution of the problem is quite simple: replace the expensive meteoric nickel iron by cheap nickel originating from other sources since it is the nickel component in the kris that provides the contrast in color’
So Groneman seems to be making high contrast silvery pamor a standard to be most desired. I am not convinced that this view on keris pamor was the accepted Javanese perspective of the time. It has been shown that many, if not most old keris don't even have nickels material in the pamor, contrast coming instead from varying levels of phosphorus in the iron used (see studies and articles by Piaskowski and Bronson). Meteorite was only really in use as a pamor material for about a century before this time and only in a very limited number of keris. But Groneman began importing pure nickel to see his own ideal of pamor created in the keris. He was convinced he was saving a dying culture and putting keris production back on track, but it seems to me that he was instrumental in changing our perceptions of what a "good" keris is supposed to look like, at least in the international collector's view. I must admit that i am uncertain if this "ideal" has also become embedded in the native Javanese psyche.
70 years later Dietrich Drescher was instrumental in reviving keris manufacture and culture in Jawa. I am not certain how much his influence affected how keris were produced though he undoubtable brought his own European collector's perspective of what makes a "good" keris into the process.

Rick · 10th October 2014, 10:14 PM

....and not a very good student :

I'd like to observe that it is utterly puzzling to me why the Javanese would take an object so clearly aligned with Male and Female, Birth and Death, Creation, aspirations, an Heirloom; the best work that a Pande, whatever his skill level could produce; and subject it to a corrosive process on a regular basis .

Maybe if I could understand just that .

9th October 2014, 10:31 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Giovanni, the availability of materials at times in the past could have been a factor, however, perhaps not as great a problem as we might think. In Bali the Pandai Caste was and is powerful within Balinese society. The members of the Pandai Cast are workers in iron, and they are spread throughout the Balinese society. There were long standing trade links with China, there was iron smelting going on in Jawa, and I think probably Bali too, at least the beach sands in many places would seem to be suitable for production of iron. So, yes, material could have been a factor, but perhaps not quite so much as we might think. EDIT Something we must always remember in this context of availability of any type of materials to areas of SE Asia is that there was a well established trade network throughout SE Asia, and even as far as Madagascar, China, and interestingly, Northern Australia, that in some cases extended back as far as the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. There was nickel bearing iron being exported from Luwu in Sulawesi from at least the time of Majapahit. SE Asia may have been unknown territory to Europeans prior to first contact, but it was certainly no unknown territory to the people of India, China and the Middle East, let alone the people of Maritime SE Asia. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 10th October 2014 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Afterthought

10th October 2014, 10:14 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	As A Western Collector ....and not a very good student : I'd like to observe that it is utterly puzzling to me why the Javanese would take an object so clearly aligned with Male and Female, Birth and Death, Creation, aspirations, an Heirloom; the best work that a Pande, whatever his skill level could produce; and subject it to a corrosive process on a regular basis . Maybe if I could understand just that .

9th October 2014, 01:53 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Timo, you have answered my question with a question, and I can give you a direct response:- Yes. But why? There has probably been more nonsense spoken and written about the keris than about any other edged weapon, or cultural icon. The reasons for this are many and complex, but what we do know is that the nature of the keris has continually changed over the more than 1000 years of its existence. The core of keris culture, and its place of origin is Jawa. Jawa is also the place of keris culture that has been subjected to the greatest degree of continuous influence by factors from outside Javanese society. For anybody to understand the keris and its place in Javanese culture that person must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people themselves understand the keris. This is not to say that an outsider must understand the keris in the same way as it is understood in the varying layers of Javanese society, but the outsider must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris. Thus, an understanding of an understanding, or perhaps an understanding of a number of understandings. For this understanding of an outsider to develop it is necessary to address many aspects of the keris presence in Jawa. During the period of existence of the Modern Keris those two greatest outside influences on Javanese society have been Islam and the presence of Europeans along with their colonial ambitions. Therefore it would seem to be of vital importance for the serious student of the keris to attempt to gain some insight into the way in which these two outside influences of Islam and the Europeans contributed to the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris.

9th October 2014, 11:19 AM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Thanks for your reply, Alan Could the size of the kerises depend upon the availability of iron in the various areas ? I think that the possibility of finding iron and nickel/iron was a major problem.

9th October 2014, 05:41 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Alan, you ask a not easy to answer question, special regarding the influence of the Islam upon the the Javanese cultural perception of the keris since I know not enough about the Javanese cultural perception of the keris before Islam coming to Java. But frankly said I think that this influence wasn't so great like others maybe think. By my first visit on Java 1992 I was surprised, special in Central and East Java, about the very own interpretation of Islam on Java. This changed in the time until now but I think that this can be neglect regarding your question. The outer appearance of the keris may have changed by Islamic influence but nothing else. I may be completley wrong so I would like to read your own opinion about this. The colonial influence was much greater IMHO since middle of last century the "keris culture" was nearly moribund. This was prevent again by outside influence by only a few persons like yourself and Dietrich Drescher who has had a great effect that the keris forging don't died. Again, I could be completely wrong by my statement and would like to read your own opinion about this. Regards, Detlef

9th October 2014, 10:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks for your contribution Detlef. Yes, it is far from an easy question, and this is the reason that I asked it. Perhaps any statement of opinion needs to begin with a statement that clarifies one's understanding of the way(s) in which Javanese society perceives the keris at the present time. Then perhaps it may be possible to unravel the various current perceptions and attempt to form some sort of opinion on how these current perceptions might have arisen. Detlef, you have made a very valid point when you identify the need for a baseline that puts the keris into a pre-Islamic, pre-European contact setting. Once this baseline has been established it then might become possible to identify the changing nature of the keris throughout time, and possibly speculate upon reasons for these changes. Obviously this cannot be done in the absence of at least some relevant knowledge. Perhaps my "Interpretation" article might be of some assistance in helping to form an understanding of the possible baseline. Detlef, I currently have a number of opinions about the changing nature of the keris in Jawa, but I will not state those opinions until such time as I can support them. The reason I have put this question up for everybody to take a shot at is to try to understand how broadly interested people in the world outside Jawa understand the Javanese perception of the keris. It may help to form opinions if we look at some of the facets of the Javanese keris. It is a weapon, a personal talisman, a family inheritance, a work of art, a store of wealth, an item of formal dress, it has religious associations, it is a symbol of its custodian, an hierarchical indicator, a symbol of its culture, an endorsement of the right to rule --- and that is the short list. Did all these things apply at the moment of its appearance in Javanese society, or did it gradually accumulate some of these attributes as time passed? If the attributes were gradually accumulated, is it possible to identify factors that may have caused an attribute to be attached to the keris? These are the sort of things that we need to consider in order to form opinions that could be used to respond to my question. As you say Detlef:- not an easy question.

10th October 2014, 07:59 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I will qualify my statements by saying that i really have no idea of the inner beliefs of Javanese (or Indonesian) society regarding the keris. I have never been there and have no real direct contacts that can valid anything i might believe on the subject. My understanding of the keris, what a "good" keris might be, is dictated more by my understanding of how international collectors view the keris. It is clear to me that Islam as it has existed in Indonesia is its own variation on the theme and has absorbed quite a bit of local (both pre-Islamic and pre-Hindu) belief along its doctrines. If extremists are now trying to turn Indonesians away from the keris i am not convinced that is yet the norm and i would rather not turn this into a discussion or debate on current politics and religious extremism. Islam in Indonesia seems to have embraced the keris over the centuries and embed it with its own sense of Islamic mystical thinking. It seems likely that a good deal of the original Hindu-influenced symbolic intent of the keris has been replaced with its Islamic counterparts over the centuries of Islamic influence. So how Indonesians relate to the keris must have certainly changed in some regard over the years because of this. Regarding the physicality of the keris i am less certain that the establishment of an Islamic culture made that many changes to the over all design. Yes, certainly we saw figurative hilts morph into abstract representation in certain areas around the archipelago. Interestingly enough though, a ban on figurative hilts does not really seem to have been put into effect in Jawa. I don't see that Islamic culture did that much to change the blade itself though. Yes, over the centuries we see the development of more complex pamor pattern, but this seems more a natural evolution than one dictated by religious philosophy. The same can probably be said about dhapurs. If anything affected the blade construction itself i would have to say colonial influence has. It seems to me that it was Europeans like Isaac Groneman who put an emphasis on the desirability of the high contrast silvery pamor he noted on upper level court pieces and made that the bar to be reached for a "good" keris. In 1904 Groneman wrote: ‘The pamor material for the kris smiths connected to the courts of Yogyakarta and Surakarta originates from an iron meteorite that fell to earth at the end of the eighteenth century in the neighbourhood of the Prambanan temple complex. The meteorite was excavated and transported to the kraton of Surakarta. From that time on, the weapon smiths of the Vorstenlanden used small pieces of meteoric iron to produce the pamor pattern in their krisses, pikes and other status weapons. After etching the blade with acidic substances, it is the small percentage of nickel always presents in meteoric iron that causes the characteristic silvery pattern that faintly lights up against a background of iron or steel that has become darkly coloured by the effect of the acids. However, the supply of meteoric iron, already scarce and expensive, will gradually become exhausted. The petty weapon smiths and their assistants who now and then receive a commission from their noble clients – they are becoming fewer and fewer – are poor and consequently can no longer pay for their raw materials. The Javanese weapon smiths are destitute. By making a kris, they do not earn more than starvation wages. Their trade threatens to become extinct if nothing changes. However, the solution of the problem is quite simple: replace the expensive meteoric nickel iron by cheap nickel originating from other sources since it is the nickel component in the kris that provides the contrast in color’ So Groneman seems to be making high contrast silvery pamor a standard to be most desired. I am not convinced that this view on keris pamor was the accepted Javanese perspective of the time. It has been shown that many, if not most old keris don't even have nickels material in the pamor, contrast coming instead from varying levels of phosphorus in the iron used (see studies and articles by Piaskowski and Bronson). Meteorite was only really in use as a pamor material for about a century before this time and only in a very limited number of keris. But Groneman began importing pure nickel to see his own ideal of pamor created in the keris. He was convinced he was saving a dying culture and putting keris production back on track, but it seems to me that he was instrumental in changing our perceptions of what a "good" keris is supposed to look like, at least in the international collector's view. I must admit that i am uncertain if this "ideal" has also become embedded in the native Javanese psyche. 70 years later Dietrich Drescher was instrumental in reviving keris manufacture and culture in Jawa. I am not certain how much his influence affected how keris were produced though he undoubtable brought his own European collector's perspective of what makes a "good" keris into the process.