Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

Timo Nieminen · 4th October 2014, 10:19 PM

Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese.

I've only seen a few sources comment on Okinawan iron production (all Japanese, all saying there was none). Okinawa certainly imported weapons and iron tools from both Japan and China. A lot of Japanese weapons passed through on the way to China as well. Iron tools (and probably weapons) were manufactured locally from imported iron. This last point means that while we might be able to identify iron as Chinese or Japanese (or Indian, or more recently, European scrap iron) in origin, it still doesn't tell us where the item in question was made, since iron was traded as a raw material and locally smithed.

Weapons restrictions on Okinawa predate Japanese rule (iirc, they date to the unification by the kings of Chuzan (ruling from Shuri)). However, a lot of karate mythology talks about the development of karate to fight the Japanese, so blames disarmament on the Japanese. It's best to largely ignore the mythology (which includes choice elements such as karate punches being designed to pierce Japanese wooden/bamboo armour, which was not what Japanese soldiers/samurai wore). The sai certainly has history on Okinawa as a police truncheon. This role was taken by jutte in Japan, so I wouldn't expect to see many Japanese sai. As noted upthread, the sai was also used by Chinese police (but I think less often than the iron ruler). It's very likely that the sai was adopted in Okinawa from Chinese use.

In China, the main use of the Sai seems to have been in Fujian and Taiwan. Taiwanese use would have come from Fujianese use. Fujian was also closely connected by trade and travel to Okinawa and SE Asia, and is a likely entry point for the sai into China if it was adopted from Indonesian use.

(The Highbinder sai might well be American-made, but would have been made in the traditional Chinese style.)

estcrh · 5th October 2014, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese.

But did other cultures have the same pommel style, either before the Chinese adaptation of it or by copying the Chinese style, I think a lot of information from Okinawa and Indonesia is missing.

Here are a couple of known Indonesian sai to compare.

estcrh · 6th October 2014, 07:58 PM

The lack of iron production in Okinawa is mentioned in this book "Okinawa:The History of an Island People" By George Kerr, the restrictions on importing weapons into Okinawa is mentioned as well.

josh stout · 6th October 2014, 10:55 PM

The top one I posted is from an area of Northern Sumatra where Chinese laborers were brought by the British in the late 19th c. The set of two and the other one with a wooden handle are all Chinese. All three are octagonal. The set with brass guards and pommel has a scoring line accentuating the rounded points. The other wooden handled Chinese example has a flat tip. The Sumatran one looks exactly like the other Indonesian examples shown.

estcrh · 7th October 2014, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

The top one I posted is from an area of Northern Sumatra where Chinese laborers were brought by the British in the late 19th c. The set of two and the other one with a wooden handle are all Chinese. All three are octagonal. The set with brass guards and pommel has a scoring line accentuating the rounded points. The other wooden handled Chinese example has a flat tip. The Sumatran one looks exactly like the other Indonesian examples shown.

Josh, thanks for adding your sai here, I put it next to some other sai from the same area to compare. I think this is the most images of sai from the Indonesian area ever in place. Unfortunately I do not know of any sai that is known to have come from Okinawa. Your Chinese sai are quite nice, the vast majority of achinese sai seem to be four sided.

josh stout · 8th October 2014, 12:14 AM

That is very interesting. One of them looks so much like mine that I think it may be the same one. As far as I know I have never posted a photo, so it would have had to come from the Indonesian seller and be several years old.

What do you think?

estcrh · 8th October 2014, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

That is very interesting. One of them looks so much like mine that I think it may be the same one. As far as I know I have never posted a photo, so it would have had to come from the Indonesian seller and be several years old.

What do you think?

I thought they looked similar, it did not occur to me that the pictures may have been of the same sai, small world.

6th October 2014, 07:58 PM	#3
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	The lack of iron production in Okinawa is mentioned in this book "Okinawa:The History of an Island People" By George Kerr, the restrictions on importing weapons into Okinawa is mentioned as well. Attached Images

6th October 2014, 10:55 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The top one I posted is from an area of Northern Sumatra where Chinese laborers were brought by the British in the late 19th c. The set of two and the other one with a wooden handle are all Chinese. All three are octagonal. The set with brass guards and pommel has a scoring line accentuating the rounded points. The other wooden handled Chinese example has a flat tip. The Sumatran one looks exactly like the other Indonesian examples shown. Attached Images

4th October 2014, 10:19 PM	#1
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese. I've only seen a few sources comment on Okinawan iron production (all Japanese, all saying there was none). Okinawa certainly imported weapons and iron tools from both Japan and China. A lot of Japanese weapons passed through on the way to China as well. Iron tools (and probably weapons) were manufactured locally from imported iron. This last point means that while we might be able to identify iron as Chinese or Japanese (or Indian, or more recently, European scrap iron) in origin, it still doesn't tell us where the item in question was made, since iron was traded as a raw material and locally smithed. Weapons restrictions on Okinawa predate Japanese rule (iirc, they date to the unification by the kings of Chuzan (ruling from Shuri)). However, a lot of karate mythology talks about the development of karate to fight the Japanese, so blames disarmament on the Japanese. It's best to largely ignore the mythology (which includes choice elements such as karate punches being designed to pierce Japanese wooden/bamboo armour, which was not what Japanese soldiers/samurai wore). The sai certainly has history on Okinawa as a police truncheon. This role was taken by jutte in Japan, so I wouldn't expect to see many Japanese sai. As noted upthread, the sai was also used by Chinese police (but I think less often than the iron ruler). It's very likely that the sai was adopted in Okinawa from Chinese use. In China, the main use of the Sai seems to have been in Fujian and Taiwan. Taiwanese use would have come from Fujianese use. Fujian was also closely connected by trade and travel to Okinawa and SE Asia, and is a likely entry point for the sai into China if it was adopted from Indonesian use. (The Highbinder sai might well be American-made, but would have been made in the traditional Chinese style.)

8th October 2014, 12:14 AM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	That is very interesting. One of them looks so much like mine that I think it may be the same one. As far as I know I have never posted a photo, so it would have had to come from the Indonesian seller and be several years old. What do you think?