Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.

Okinawa was close to both China and Japan so it would not be unusual for a Chinese influence to be seen in Okinawan sai, I know for a fact that two of the sai I posted came here directly from Japan, and there is way more chance that they got to Japan through Okinawa than through China. Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.



Here are two searches, one for "Chinese sai" and one for "Okinawan sai", see what both bring up.

Chinese sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chin...w=1842&bih=995


Okinawan sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=okin...w=1842&bih=995

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.

Here's a Chinese example (the Japanese name would be "manji no sai"; I don't know if there is a specific Chinese name, or whether it is just "cha" like a normal sai). In rather poor condition. 715g.

Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.)

These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon.

Also attached is a picture of an iron ruler that's half-way to becoming a sai. (Pg. 55 in 中国古代冷兵器 (Ancient Chinese cold weapon)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.)

These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon.

Timo, I personally have not seen an authentic, antique sai that was proven to have originated from China and looked anything like the sai currently posted, they may have had some similarities but they also had glaring differences.

I have watched, dealers, auctions, Ebay, Yahoo Japan for years and have only seen a couple of antique sai, surviving ones are rare. Of the ones I posted I know for sure that two came directly from Japan, and one came here from Indonesia, the other one was said to be from Japan but I have no proof. So if I see a sai that is of unknown origin and it is quite similar to the ones I know did not come from China I have to assume that it is not Chinese.

Here are two Chinese sai, as you can see they have some similarity to the sai previously posted but they have more in common with the ones you posted.

[estcrh]

Here is a quick comparison, notice the similarities.

[Timo Nieminen]

Some more (possibly) Chinese cha/sai:

Group of Highbinder weapons including a sai: http://amst312.umwblogs.org/2009/01/29/the-highbinders/

http://www.jikishinkobudo.com/articl...ection/8756081

Further to my earlier comments on trying to identify the origin of a particular sai, Okinawa was a major trade centre, connecting China, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines. A lot of trade went through Okinawa, with Chinese goods proceeding to Japan and the Philippines, and Japanese goods going to Chinese and SE Asia. Given domestic Okinawan iron production being what it was (I've seen it described as "absent"), a lot of "Okinawan" iron goods may well have been imported in the finished state, rather than being locally made.

[Neil]

Here are a couple examples pictured below that I know were collected in northern China.

It was mentioned before that this style of antique mace is "quite rare". I do not necessarily agree with that statement. I have seen a couple dozen examples in the past several years that are very similar or of some variant that I strongly believe were Chinese due to either their association with other weapons in the same collection or where they were being sold from. I have also seen photo evidence of Qing era Chinese prison guards using these weapons. As far as nailing down a consistent form goes, that would be difficult. Its been my experience that variation is the rule rather than the exception when it come to Chinese "cold" weapons. I do appreciate estcrh's desire for proof though. I hope the two mace that I posted will be of interest. I also like the comments Timo made about the flow of iron goods between countries.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

Here are a couple examples pictured below that I know were collected in northern China.

It was mentioned before that this style of antique mace is "quite rare". I do not necessarily agree with that statement. I have seen a couple dozen examples in the past several years that are very similar or of some variant that I strongly believe were Chinese due to either their association with other weapons in the same collection or where they were being sold from. I have also seen photo evidence of Qing era Chinese prison guards using these weapons. As far as nailing down a consistent form goes, that would be difficult. Its been my experience that variation is the rule rather than the exception when it come to Chinese "cold" weapons. I do appreciate estcrh's desire for proof though. I hope the two mace that I posted will be of interest. I also like the comments Timo made about the flow of iron goods between countries.

Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online.

Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Some more (possibly) Chinese cha/sai:

Group of Highbinder weapons including a sai: http://amst312.umwblogs.org/2009/01/29/the-highbinders/

http://www.jikishinkobudo.com/articl...ection/8756081

Further to my earlier comments on trying to identify the origin of a particular sai, Okinawa was a major trade centre, connecting China, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines. A lot of trade went through Okinawa, with Chinese goods proceeding to Japan and the Philippines, and Japanese goods going to Chinese and SE Asia. Given domestic Okinawan iron production being what it was (I've seen it described as "absent"), a lot of "Okinawan" iron goods may well have been imported in the finished state, rather than being locally made.

Timo, as you know sai have been discussed repeatedly on various forums with many claims being made but usually no proof is furnished or images posted to back up what anyone is saying and in the end no new evidence is produced. Here we finally have at least a few images and some information to work with.

I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today.

Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt.

Highbinder, a member of a Chinese-American secret society that engaged in blackmail, murder, etc, named after the High-binders, a New York city gang.

The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here.

Antique Sai in the British Collection
By Jikishin Kobudo, Sep 27 2013 11:00AM
We are fortunate to practice martial arts amongst one of the largest collections of arms and armour in the world, at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, England.

One of the objects on is display is exhibit XXVIM.17: Listed as a Chinese parrying weapon. The weapon is steel and measures 48.9cm in length. Its shaft is octagonal and the hilt is very sturdy.

The exact age of this weapon has not yet been determined, but we believe it to be at least one hundred years old. This weapon was purchased from a collection of South and East Asian weapons in the second half of the 20th century.

At the moment we are investigating as to whether this item is Okinawan or indeed Chinese and would welcome the thoughts of other martial artists with experience in this area. The item can be viewed at the museum inside the Oriental Gallery.

[Timo Nieminen]

Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese.

I've only seen a few sources comment on Okinawan iron production (all Japanese, all saying there was none). Okinawa certainly imported weapons and iron tools from both Japan and China. A lot of Japanese weapons passed through on the way to China as well. Iron tools (and probably weapons) were manufactured locally from imported iron. This last point means that while we might be able to identify iron as Chinese or Japanese (or Indian, or more recently, European scrap iron) in origin, it still doesn't tell us where the item in question was made, since iron was traded as a raw material and locally smithed.

Weapons restrictions on Okinawa predate Japanese rule (iirc, they date to the unification by the kings of Chuzan (ruling from Shuri)). However, a lot of karate mythology talks about the development of karate to fight the Japanese, so blames disarmament on the Japanese. It's best to largely ignore the mythology (which includes choice elements such as karate punches being designed to pierce Japanese wooden/bamboo armour, which was not what Japanese soldiers/samurai wore). The sai certainly has history on Okinawa as a police truncheon. This role was taken by jutte in Japan, so I wouldn't expect to see many Japanese sai. As noted upthread, the sai was also used by Chinese police (but I think less often than the iron ruler). It's very likely that the sai was adopted in Okinawa from Chinese use.

In China, the main use of the Sai seems to have been in Fujian and Taiwan. Taiwanese use would have come from Fujianese use. Fujian was also closely connected by trade and travel to Okinawa and SE Asia, and is a likely entry point for the sai into China if it was adopted from Indonesian use.

(The Highbinder sai might well be American-made, but would have been made in the traditional Chinese style.)

[KraVseR]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Timo, as you know sai have been discussed repeatedly on various forums with many claims being made but usually no proof is furnished or images posted to back up what anyone is saying and in the end no new evidence is produced. Here we finally have at least a few images and some information to work with.

I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today.

Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt.




The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here.

What weapons are depicted on this image? Help please.