Loaded Flintlock - problem or not?

CutlassCollector · 25th September 2014, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

Why not just prime it, put in a new flint and shoot the damn thing? Aside from making the pistol safe it would also be an interesting excursion into the past.

Yes, sounds like a good idea at first.
But this is what Norm Flayderman says about loaded antique firearms in his reference book ...."do not under any circumstances, attempt to remove it (the powder charge) by firing the gun....extremely hazardous".
Consider that the effect of 150 years of corrosive black powder and a seized in ball could possibly rupture the barrel. A long piece of string may well save your hand but certainly not your investment.
CC

Shakethetrees · 25th September 2014, 10:48 PM

...and the results are in!

I saturated a bit of BP with 3 in 1 oil as shown in the images I posted.

Unfortunately, the porosity of the fireproof crucible sucked the oil away from the powder, and left it high and dry!

I repeated it in a stainless steel cup, saturated the powder as before and waited 24 hours. The result is the powder ignited slowly and somewhat reluctantly, and burned much more slowly than fresh, unsaturated powder does.

I stand corrected.

Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period.

I'm doing the same with water. It's soaking right now, tomorrow I will take the water away and dry the powder before I attempt to light it.

More results later.

It's great to have an excuse to do a little experimentation like this that could have benefits to the collecting community at large.

And, besides, it's great to have a brief return to my childhood!

Shakethetrees · 25th September 2014, 11:06 PM

This reminds me of a situation I had in April of 2001.

I was at Charles DeGaulle airport waiting in line to get a boarding pass.

As luck would have it I found a nice little French flintlock pocket pistol, c.1760 at the Marche Paul Bert at the Puces.

While waiting in line, (and remember, this is pre 9-11 when security was a lot looser.) the lady asked if we had anything that we might have that could cause a problem down the line, as my baggage still was not checked.

I called her over and mentioned the antique pistol. You should have seen the look on her face! She then nervously called her manager, who was French, over, and mentioned our dilemma.

He asked to have a look at it, so I took it out and handed it over. One quick look, he gave it back with the admonition, "Monsieur, the only way this pistol could be a danger is if you threw it at someone."

So I packed it up and flew home, no other problems.

Jet lag took over, and, being unable to sleep, I got the pistol out and began making a top jaw. (The original was missing when I bought it.)

Just for grins, I decided to replace the ramrod, also missing. Lo and behold, as I was measuring the depth of the bore, to my surprise I found it was still loaded!

A little oil down the bore and the ball and charge came out.,the wadding used was tow, a fine straw like thin dried grass. The remains of the powder was up dampened by the oil, so I lit it and it burned as one would expect.

So, the old admonition of treating each and every gun as though it IS loaded, really rang true.

CutlassCollector · 26th September 2014, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...and the results are in!

...............
Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period.

Hi Shakethetrees, Great work and thanks for taking the trouble on behalf of, not only myself, but the collecting community as a whole. The result is interesting and dispels the myth that oil neutralizes black powder. I'm sure a lot of members await your further results.
Thanks also JamesKelly for questioning the myth!!
CC

M ELEY · 26th September 2014, 11:31 AM

Aarrrh! Got me again, 'Nando! Yes, I'm not the gun collector, obviously! Actually, I appreciate the info on Liege. It makes sense to me now, especially when comparing it to the Birmingham merchants all marketing their wares as if they had made them, versus the real smiths in other areas. I do know that the ELG logo underwent a subtle change post 1830, being the same letters, but in larger form. They still made flintlocks after this time period, so this helps to determine the ones made after 'Age of Fighting Sail'.

fernando · 26th September 2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...I do know that the ELG logo underwent a subtle change post 1830, being the same letters, but in larger form. They still made flintlocks after this time period, so this helps to determine the ones made after 'Age of Fighting Sail'.

This is a long story

.
The imposing of Liege proof marks has been quite problematic since the 17th century. At first the gunmakers could punction the proof mark in their own shop ... making this suspicious. Then some only punctioned the initial E (eprouvé=proofed) evading the origin identification.
Establishment of regular definite proof marking (ELG) was only achieved with the Napoleonic occupation (1810-1815), however declining soon after under Dutch rule. Those guys were realy undisciplined.
Intermediary marks were meanwhile edited ( EL as from 1853), depending on the type of (multiple) barrel and their use, besides the famous Perron (as from 1846 - see atttachment) for the chamber of the various system guns.
Meanwhile the ELG mark was added a crown over the oval as from the second half 19th century.
Also apparently the two forms (dimensions) of the crowned punction serve to identify disting types of barrel proof, the larger for muzzle loaders and the smaller for self loading pistols and the like. I realize this is the mark we often see in second half 19th century mass production revolvers out there.
Apart from a 'few other minor' punctions and the above exposition subject to correction, here you have a resume of the Liege (Belgium) proof marks saga.

... And i hope by now that CC is not mad for his thread hijack

.

.

Pukka Bundook · 26th September 2014, 03:10 PM

Another problem with firing off an old loaded gun, is that someone may have loaded it with some other powder it wasn't made for. A lot of powders are black!.........but they are not "Gunpowder", ie, black powder.
It is also quite likely that a loaded weapon could have been loaded in the last few years.
In the last year I have purchased two that were loaded, One an English double sporting gun, the other French.
The French one was wadded with newspaper (Obituary page!) of someone apparently died in 1983 if I remember correctly.
Many of us shoot these old arms, and it isn't outside the realms of possibility that they are occasionally left loaded.
Drawing a charge is normally no bother, and nothing to be alarmed about.
Those that use these old guns withdraw charges as a matter of course.
Keep your head out of the way of the muzzle, and use a good worm on your rod, and all will be fine.
Normally we don't bother wetting the powder first, as it makes it harder to clean out. Old powder can set into a cake, so must be broken up to get it all out. Clean & oil the barrel afterwards to prevent rust.

Richard.

Shakethetrees · 27th September 2014, 03:10 AM

Second phase of the great BP experiment is in!

Water dampened powder was allowed to sit for a few hours and an attempt was made to light it. It was heavily saturated with excess water pooling around the edges. No surprise here- it didn't light.

So I dried the mixture slowly. It formed a hard cake with crystals of saltpeter growing up the sides of the stainless bowl. Once I chipped it out, a match was held beneath it. It reluctantly lit, slower than the oil treated powder, but it still lit and burned slowly. Not so slowly that it would not be hazardous if contained in a barrel, though.

So, to the collecting community, who might occasionally come across a loaded antique firearm that requires unloading, be careful. Saturate the charge thoroughly with water to excess. Let it sit for a few hours and only when you are perfectly sure the charge has been soaking for a few hours, should you then attempt to pull the charge.

Or,

Call a competent gunsmith and let them take the risk. They have the experience and training that will get them through the hurdles.

Tread lightly!

25th September 2014, 10:48 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	...and the results are in! I saturated a bit of BP with 3 in 1 oil as shown in the images I posted. Unfortunately, the porosity of the fireproof crucible sucked the oil away from the powder, and left it high and dry! I repeated it in a stainless steel cup, saturated the powder as before and waited 24 hours. The result is the powder ignited slowly and somewhat reluctantly, and burned much more slowly than fresh, unsaturated powder does. I stand corrected. Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period. I'm doing the same with water. It's soaking right now, tomorrow I will take the water away and dry the powder before I attempt to light it. More results later. It's great to have an excuse to do a little experimentation like this that could have benefits to the collecting community at large. And, besides, it's great to have a brief return to my childhood!

25th September 2014, 11:06 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	This reminds me of a situation I had in April of 2001. I was at Charles DeGaulle airport waiting in line to get a boarding pass. As luck would have it I found a nice little French flintlock pocket pistol, c.1760 at the Marche Paul Bert at the Puces. While waiting in line, (and remember, this is pre 9-11 when security was a lot looser.) the lady asked if we had anything that we might have that could cause a problem down the line, as my baggage still was not checked. I called her over and mentioned the antique pistol. You should have seen the look on her face! She then nervously called her manager, who was French, over, and mentioned our dilemma. He asked to have a look at it, so I took it out and handed it over. One quick look, he gave it back with the admonition, "Monsieur, the only way this pistol could be a danger is if you threw it at someone." So I packed it up and flew home, no other problems. Jet lag took over, and, being unable to sleep, I got the pistol out and began making a top jaw. (The original was missing when I bought it.) Just for grins, I decided to replace the ramrod, also missing. Lo and behold, as I was measuring the depth of the bore, to my surprise I found it was still loaded! A little oil down the bore and the ball and charge came out.,the wadding used was tow, a fine straw like thin dried grass. The remains of the powder was up dampened by the oil, so I lit it and it burned as one would expect. So, the old admonition of treating each and every gun as though it IS loaded, really rang true.

26th September 2014, 11:31 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Aarrrh! Got me again, 'Nando! Yes, I'm not the gun collector, obviously! Actually, I appreciate the info on Liege. It makes sense to me now, especially when comparing it to the Birmingham merchants all marketing their wares as if they had made them, versus the real smiths in other areas. I do know that the ELG logo underwent a subtle change post 1830, being the same letters, but in larger form. They still made flintlocks after this time period, so this helps to determine the ones made after 'Age of Fighting Sail'.

26th September 2014, 03:10 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Another problem with firing off an old loaded gun, is that someone may have loaded it with some other powder it wasn't made for. A lot of powders are black!.........but they are not "Gunpowder", ie, black powder. It is also quite likely that a loaded weapon could have been loaded in the last few years. In the last year I have purchased two that were loaded, One an English double sporting gun, the other French. The French one was wadded with newspaper (Obituary page!) of someone apparently died in 1983 if I remember correctly. Many of us shoot these old arms, and it isn't outside the realms of possibility that they are occasionally left loaded. Drawing a charge is normally no bother, and nothing to be alarmed about. Those that use these old guns withdraw charges as a matter of course. Keep your head out of the way of the muzzle, and use a good worm on your rod, and all will be fine. Normally we don't bother wetting the powder first, as it makes it harder to clean out. Old powder can set into a cake, so must be broken up to get it all out. Clean & oil the barrel afterwards to prevent rust. Richard.

27th September 2014, 03:10 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Second phase of the great BP experiment is in! Water dampened powder was allowed to sit for a few hours and an attempt was made to light it. It was heavily saturated with excess water pooling around the edges. No surprise here- it didn't light. So I dried the mixture slowly. It formed a hard cake with crystals of saltpeter growing up the sides of the stainless bowl. Once I chipped it out, a match was held beneath it. It reluctantly lit, slower than the oil treated powder, but it still lit and burned slowly. Not so slowly that it would not be hazardous if contained in a barrel, though. So, to the collecting community, who might occasionally come across a loaded antique firearm that requires unloading, be careful. Saturate the charge thoroughly with water to excess. Let it sit for a few hours and only when you are perfectly sure the charge has been soaking for a few hours, should you then attempt to pull the charge. Or, Call a competent gunsmith and let them take the risk. They have the experience and training that will get them through the hurdles. Tread lightly!