Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Aleksey

This one is Chinese for sure.

Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa.

Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK.

The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

Aleksey, were are you getting this information from, if you search for the word "bijiacha" you do not find one image or mention of a sai, if you search for "Chinese sai you will not find much either, if you search for "Okinawan sai" you will find many similar looking sai to the one being discussed.

Here is a section from "Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai" by Don Cunningham which discusses sai in China and Okinawa as well as some other Chinese iron bar weapons.

I have posted an image of what was said to be a Chinese sai, it is quite long and pointed.

[ausjulius]

it is indeed anodd weapon.. its hard to say the origin of them if they dont have a grip wrapping any more..

the malay style with have a spiraling bount cord that makes it easy to distinguish..
also malay ones almost always have some for of point as it is a weapon after all.
but in china and japan laws forbidding general public from having pointy things turn many of these into a steel baton..

malay name is trisula.. which lets you know its origins by its indo-aryan name .. being a trident i would imagine it was originally some scaled down version of the fork like Indian spears that have spread through asia with indian religion.

many of the malay trisula have indeed chinese multifaced pommels.. and ive seen japanese ones like it too.

the sai and the tonfa batons both have their origins in malay martial arts.(the tonfa baton is also present in burma and thailand.. as is the trisula.. although very uncommon so again the real origin of both may be indian martial arts.. )
.
we must remember that 1200 years ago the malay kingdoms were powerful states controlling the sea beween east asia and india and although they are long forgotten today at one time they were naval super powers of the region, - controling the seas of south east asia.. so lots of these things spread very rapidly and were ingested locally.

[Neil]

In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.

Do you have any pictures of some of the ones purchased from China so we can compare, as far as I know the Chinese do not allow export of their antique weapons, they do export vast amounts of fakes, some quite good. On the other hand I have seen several antique sai that originated from Japan, which makes sense since Okinawa was part of Japan for several hundred years. I am not saying that it is impossible that the Chinese did not make and use sai of this exact type, its just that I have so far not seen any evidence that they did, the antique sai that I have seen that were labeled as Chinese looked quite different. Here is another sai that originated in Japan, again quite similar to the one being discussed.

[Neil]

I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.

Okinawa was close to both China and Japan so it would not be unusual for a Chinese influence to be seen in Okinawan sai, I know for a fact that two of the sai I posted came here directly from Japan, and there is way more chance that they got to Japan through Okinawa than through China. Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.



Here are two searches, one for "Chinese sai" and one for "Okinawan sai", see what both bring up.

Chinese sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chin...w=1842&bih=995


Okinawan sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=okin...w=1842&bih=995

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.

Here's a Chinese example (the Japanese name would be "manji no sai"; I don't know if there is a specific Chinese name, or whether it is just "cha" like a normal sai). In rather poor condition. 715g.

Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.)

These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon.

Also attached is a picture of an iron ruler that's half-way to becoming a sai. (Pg. 55 in 中国古代冷兵器 (Ancient Chinese cold weapon)