Breech-Loading Swivel Gun / Cannon For Comment

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

But Fernando, when it comes to something like this, YOU ARE my expert!

If i were your expert, my posts would be copyrighted

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

If i were your expert, my posts would be copyrighted

I always pay a lot of attention to what you say, even when I don't agree.

[Matchlock]

Hi Dana W,


For stylistic as well as formal reasons, this breechloading bronze cannon barrel is closely datable to ca. 1530-1550; many of these are of Portuguese manufacture - now, does this give you some patriotic satisfaction, Nando?

The zigzag ornamentation cast in high relief and contoured by chiseling, is highly unusual for Asia, while characteristic of the Nuremberg Early Renaissance style.
If made in a Nuremberg foundry, it should be dated to ca. 1525-40.

Please note Nando's thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+breechloading

and by the author:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...h+loading+1540



Best,
Michael

[dana_w]

Thanks for your comments Michael. Your thread "Breech loading 1450-1550" is one of my favorites here at the forum. It should be required reading.

The muzzle and forward portion of barrel looks like it has been in a fire.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by dana_w

Thanks for your comments Michael. Your thread "Breech loading 1450-1550" is one of my favorites here at the forum. It should be required reading.

Thank you so much; I always try to do my very best, sometimes researching, and writing, for three or four days, without any sleep at all ... I will hopefully see my bed tonight ...

The muzzle and forward portion of barrel looks like it has been in a fire.

Exactly!

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...For stylistic as well as formal reasons, this breechloading bronze cannon barrel is closely datable to ca. 1530-1550; many of these are of Portuguese manufacture - now, does this give you some patriotic satisfaction, Nando? ...zigzag[/i] ornamentation cast in high relief and contoured by chiseling, is highly unusual for Asia, while characteristic of the Nuremberg Early Renaissance style...If made in a Nuremberg foundry, it should be dated to ca. 1525-40.[
Please note Nando's thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+breechloading
and by the author:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...h+loading+1540...

May i disagree or confess that i am in the least confused ?
The zigzag (bamboo shoot ) motives are in low relief and are usual for Asia. This would be one of the common components of a Lantaka decoration .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=lantaka

I agree, as i first mentioned, that the breech loading style is that of a 'berço', a term implying that this would be of Portuguese nature and of the date suggested .
I wouldn't recall the date the lantaka (with such decoration type) appeared but, apart from that and if i may, i still suspect that this whole set may well be a knock off, either for (not so transparent) Web selling purposes or, as often happens, for local use, like for home decoration, wedding dowry, trade currency, etc.
Nowadays artificial ageing of things is far from being discerned by those non initiated, myself for one. Perhaps some solid data on its provenance might help clarify.

.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't recall the date the lantaka (with such decoration type) appeared but, apart from that and if i may, i still suspect that this whole set may well be a knock off, either for (not so transparent) Web selling purposes or, as often happens, for local use, like for home decoration, wedding dowry, trade currency, etc.
Nowadays artificial ageing of things is far from being discerned by those non initiated, myself for one. Perhaps some solid data on its provenance might help clarify.

I wish that I could provide more information on the cannon's provenance. It was purchased by my father about ten years ago from a dealer near Frederick, MD. I have met the dealer a number of times at the Baltimore Arms Collectors Show and will give him a call to see if he can tell me any more.

If you think this piece may have been "artificially aged" Fernando, can you explain why? What do you see in the photos that makes you think that could be the case? Or are you just suspicious of any of these cannons?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

I wish that I could provide more information on the cannon's provenance. It was purchased by my father about ten years ago from a dealer near Frederick, MD. I have met the dealer a number of times at the Baltimore Arms Collectors Show and will give him a call to see if he can tell me any more.

If you think this piece may have been "artificially aged" Fernando, can you explain why? What do you see in the photos that makes you think that could be the case? Or are you just suspicious of any of these cannons?

If you research a bit on this theme you will find that in 'certain' commercial milieu the ageing of pieces is rather common. Also these lantakas were so popularized that the number of non functional examples out there in the market is, i dare say, a lot higher than those made for battle. It just happened that way; either due to their appeal or/and cultural reasons as, in that region, having lots of those was a good exterior sign of wealth. Therefore for some arms collectors is always important to distinguish whether an example was a real fighting one or a passive device.
And yes, to my eyes a couple contours in this example you posted looks far more decorative than operational ... the wedge vent rims and not only.
But of course, other members with far more knowledge may tell you more about the subject; even simply correct me.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

May i disagree or confess that i am in the least confused ?
The zigzag (bamboo shoot ) motives are in low relief and are usual for Asia. This would be one of the common components of a Lantaka decoration .
.

Of course they are, Nando,


But when they appear on cast-copper alloy barrels (brass or bonze), it is only on items after ca. 1550.

The reason is that they started importing barrels with that zigzag ornament from Nuremberg from the early 16th century. By and by they must have started taking over, and copying, the appearance of those barrels they called lantakas - that "magic" zigzag decoration included.

Very soon, though, their native Indonesian stylistic elements seem to have prevailed, and this, in my opinion, is why you can tell apart an early 16th century barrel from a similar but Indonesia made, within seconds.


Originally, the zigzag ornament goes back to the early 14th century, when it became known as der fränkische Rechen (the Franconian rake), and consequently characteristic of identifying, and representing, the Franconian region by its official coat-of-arms.
Nürnberg has always been the capital of Franconia, as well as the important political, cultural, and economic center.

So this is what that zigzag ornament originally stood for, and was meant to convey to people on far-off continents: the power and unparalleled leading quality, as well as the topic stylistical taste, of all goods that were made in, and exported from, Nuremberg, Franconia.

There was a well-known saying since the 15th century:
"Nürnberger Tand geht in alle Land", meaning: Nuremberg manufactured objects of both everyday use and artwork were exported to the rest of the world - at least the parts known by then.


Attached find two Nuremberg founded brass/bronze haquebut barrels preserved in the Museum of Gerolzhofen, Franconia, that I will introduce in another thread. They both were cast in the 1530's, and one of them is dated 1538 in high relief.
Both show the Franconian rake, as a proof of their Nuremberg manufactured quality.

Could you please point me to a lantaka of such an early date?
I'd be grateful for learning more on their histor.


Best,
Michl


All photos in this post copyrighted by the author, Michael Trömner.

[dana_w]

Here is another image for your perusal.

This photo is copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[cornelistromp]

It's a 15th/16thC portuguese or spanish breechloading swivel cannon.
those 15th and 16th century breechloading cannons look all alike , like peas in a pot.

This type of gun is thought to have been cast in Goa, Portuguese India however they were also produced in Macao during this period.
they were made for the spanish and portuguese.



there are a lot of fakes on the market, whether yours is real unfortunately I can not tell from the pictures.
The core was held in the middle by thin iron wires, during the casting.
perhaps there are still traces of these wires showing on the skin. (small rust spots).


best,