Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[A. G. Maisey]

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

[spiral]

Savage.. but true & correct!

Also the butterscotch horn hilt was clearly cracked while still on the animal, but was still used for the hilt.

So despite good colour clearly a defective & imperfect material, so presumably not top quality.

spiral

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by spiral

Savage.. but true & correct!

Also the butterscotch horn hilt was clearly cracked while still on the animal, but was still used for the hilt.

So despite good colour clearly a defective & imperfect material, so presumably not top quality.

spiral

Savage I don't mind. Clear and concise? Now that's useful! Your comment about the horn being cracked while still on the animal, and the significance of that, was also a useful and much appreciated observation, thanks. As a novice, I'm quite aware that there is a lot that I don't know that I need to know. As an educator, I know it's my duty as a learner to ask clarifying questions and to learn from unsuccessful attempts. It was suggested above that I count mistakes like this as tuition on my education, but if I'm to do so I need to know why and how they are mistakes. Only experienced people such as yourselves can clarify this. I'm also hoping that this thread can help other people in my position to learn more before making purchases. So please, be brutal and tell me everything you see that's, shall we say, less then perfect on these pieces! I'm not afraid of embarrassing myself- I said this was 101 right in the title. I AM afraid of making similar and/or easily avoidable mistakes in the future.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, a lot of people do not understand that often the only way to get the information or knowledge that one requires is to ask precise, specific questions.

This way the information can be tailored to the level that the person asking the question is ready to accept and understand. Give too much info, it gets lost, give too little and it gets lost. Ask the right question and hopefully the info given is just sufficient.

I don't have any pics of western style knives that I made, I still have a couple of these, but cannot immediately put my hand on them, I do have a very large quantity of damascus blades that I made, but again, no pics, however, here is a link to a page in my site, if you scroll down a bit there are 2 or 3 keris blades that I made a few years ago:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html

[blue lander]

An anecdote about Uzbek pichok knives

A little while back I bought a pichok, not nearly as nice as the ones you got but nice enough. It seemed sturdily built and sharp as a razor, and I intended to use it as a kitchen knife.

A few weeks later I was at a bar, and I overheard a man saying he was from Uzbekistan. I started chatting with him and mentioned that I bought a pichok and that I thought it was great. He looked at me like I was crazy and asked why I would bother importing one. He said they were junk and that he'd never use one unless he had no alternative. I asked why he wouldn't use one, he replied "because I know the kind of metal they use to make them." I probably should have asked him to elaborate, but it was enough to give me second thoughts about using that knife.

[driftwould]

Blue Lander and AG, thanks for the replies. Thanks to everyone for helping, the input I got from this discussion has given me a LOT of good places to start learning! Quality of handle materials, quality and type of steels, fit and finish, and on a side note, I've been looking into damascus. Two questions for the general public:

1) I'd still like to hear more thoughts on what you would take into consideration when judging the quality of steel in a modern-made, traditional knife. What standards should we hold something like that to, and would the seemingly obvious idea that they would be different from place to place (say, tribal Africa vs. tribal Taiwan (good access to modern materials, the modern world in general)) be correct? For that matter, what about an old one?

2) In keeping with the "101" theme, and hoping this will be useful for other beginners in the future (as well as myself), are there any other areas of general knowledge you can recommend I look into to build the broad knowledge base I need, given that I will - very regrettably - never have the time available to become a professional knife smith myself and learn by that route?

[A. G. Maisey]

Mate, you don't need to be a chicken to know what an egg looks like:- you can gain more knowledge than you would ever need about custom knives by reading the hard copy literature. I suggest a good place to start might be the books written by Jim Hrisoulas.

Re steel quality.

there's damascus and damascus. You can forge weld any two different ferric materials together and get something that looks like damascus, but it won't necessarily perform like damascus. A lot of the current stuff out of India and China is like this.

All the damascus that I made I used 01 steel in, combined with various other materials such as wrought iron, mild steel, nickel & so on.Whatever is used should be heat treated to the specs of the high carbon steel used. This is the reason I used 01, it is easy for an ordinary smith working with fire to get a good result in heat treatment with this steel.

However, depending on intended use, you can make a useable blade from ordinary mild steel which has only small quantities of carbon, its just that the blade will not hold an edge as long, but on the pro side, its not likely to break either. In fact, for a short stabbing weapon mild steel performs pretty good, and costs very little.

As to forming an opinion on the quality of steel based upon what you can actually see, well, I personally cannot.

Give a mirror finish to a piece of mild steel and it can look just as good as the finest hi-tech alloy steel. In fact, a lot of knives made as works of art are made from steel that has not been heat-treated. Why? Because the maker doesn't want to blow 40 or more hours work on a heat treat that goes bad, so he doesn't take the risk. The thing was made as a work of art, not a user.

If we are talking about trad knives, OK, here's the indicator:- go down to the local market and look at what the meat and vege sellers are using; if these are the local knives they are knives made to use.You can bet they're not fancy.

The user daggers and throat cutters of yesteryear are now replaced by more modern weapons, so these types of trad knife are often simply dress knives and made to dress standards not use standards. If you want a trad ethnic knife as a work of art that is also a user seek out a good, reliable maker and order one.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

Thank you for your detailed and precise response, it was extremely helpful for me. I really wasn't kidding when I said 101! While as a collector I feel like a minow swimming among whales here, as a teacher I know that it's my duty as a learner to ask clarifying questions or I simply won't be able to learn. Please forgive my lack of basic knowledge, and be patient if I ask things that seem painfully obvious from the perspective of your many years of experience. Believe me, your answers are very much appreciated!

I'd love to see some of the handwork you did, if you don't mind posting it. If you've posted already, which I'd guess you probably must have, then the link would be great! The fact that you chose to use traditional techniques and tools in the modern age, and that you also attended shows where people were judging based on modern standards, gives you a really great perspective and I'd love to know more about it.