Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I couldn't agree more Spiral:- if your old Elwell does what you want it to do, and does it well, of course you should continue to use it.

This has been exactly what we've been talking about. In fact, I'd guess that the old Elwell probably splits blocks of firewood better than a modern so-called "block-splitter". I've used these things and in my book they're bloody atrocious. I'd sooner use a hammer and wedge than a modern block splitter.

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.


I believe without question that this design was very popular as a felling axe design in England, but design is one thing, grind is another. The factory produces the design, the user does the grind.

The same thing applies with the three axes I posted a pic of:- the Plumb came from the factory with GP grind, but the owner prior to my uncle re-ground it for ease of use on green eucalypt timber. The Keesteel came from the factory with a GP grind, and it has never been reground, if it were to be reground it would come up as a very fine axe.The Kelly came from the factory with a GP design and GP grind, this axe can never be anything else but a GP axe.

Those custom makers of axes, that I put the links in for, produce exceptionally fine axes, and they offer a number of grinds straight from the factory that will suit the timber that the axe is to be used on, this saves the buyer a lot of time.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.
.

Yes it seemed virtually unused when I found it a couple of decades ago.

Ive never ground it.

So your deduction is probably correct!

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Driftwould, it appears that you understood the message I was attempting to convey, this being so I'd guess that you have probably more than a little bit study in front of you. This knowledge game tends to become easier if one can narrow focus.

In respect of fit and finish.

Perhaps the best way to understand these two things, as they apply to weaponry, is to look at a lot of examples of modern custom knifemakers work.

The best of these blokes are absolute fanatics on fit and finish.

I would not expect to see the same standard, or even anything close, when it comes to ethnic weaponry, but having seen the best that can be done you then have a yardstick to use against whatever else you might be looking at.

I feel that the two related concepts of fit and finish apply to probably most handmade objects, but within any field the interpretation will be different, for example fit and finish certainly apply to a bespoke suit, but the expert on tailoring excellence is not really equipped to judge a bespoke English longbow, and of course the opposite also applies.

So this gets back to comments that others have made, and that boil down to really only one thing:- experience. I don't know of any short cuts, but if you spend your available learning time by directing it towards the areas of greatest return you might be able to reduce the total time spent.

Fit and finish on sharp pointy things? Visit some custom knife shows.

[driftwould]

Well, since we're deep into this, here are some pictures of my latest acquisitions from Uzbekistan. Any thoughts on the quality, and how close or far from my goal I am? Unfortunately, some of them only had some pretty horrible sheathes (plastic?!) available, but what else could I do?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.

Okay, that's exactly what I was trying to figure out, and I was worried that it might be something like you said. I'll definitely be looking for opportunities to do what you said about seeing the very best. In the meantime, what exactly are you looking at in terms of fit and finish on these?

[A. G. Maisey]

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

[spiral]

Savage.. but true & correct!

Also the butterscotch horn hilt was clearly cracked while still on the animal, but was still used for the hilt.

So despite good colour clearly a defective & imperfect material, so presumably not top quality.

spiral

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Drfiftwould, it has been brought to my attention that I have not answered your question satisfactorily, and you yourself have pursued a further clarification of my inadequate answer. Please accept my apologies. Let me try again.

Any fabricated item is made of a number of pieces, and often of a number of different materials, materials that can differ in nature, character, colour, texture, and so on.

In the case of a knife, or any other type of edged weapon, these pieces should be brought together so that the places where they meet, that is, their joining edges and/or surfaces, come together as closely as possible. All joints should ideally be a part of a circle or a part of a straight line. The only reason that one should be able to detect the joint is because of the different nature of the materials, not because the actual joint itself can be seen. This is what is meant by fit.

All materials used in the fabrication of a knife or other edged weapon do not usually come in the form required for construction of that knife or weapon, the material needs to be shaped and reduced in size so that it fulfills the purpose for which it is intended, once shaped it needs to be smoothed and often polished. These processes of shaping, smoothing, polishing require that the surface of the material be subjected to cutting, grinding, moulding, and abrasive processes. In the completed knife or other edged weapon traces of the processes used to produce the finished product should not be visible.

What I have outlined is a description of perfection, and this is very seldom achieved, however, the closer to perfection an item comes, the better is the fit and finish.

I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years, and I displayed my work at a number of knife shows. The fit and finish that I could achieve in a complete knife was not even remotely close to the fit and finish that was achieved by many other makers. The principal reason for this was that I used only very primitive hand tools, my ethic was that I attempted to make in the ways that were available to artisans prior to the coming of the Modern Age.

At a knife show the buyers of custom and handmade knives carry jewellers loupes and magnifying glasses, and they examine the work of the makers very closely before they part with the purchase price. It is never only a matter of the overall appearance of a knife, nor of design, it is a matter of seeking total perfection in the construction of the knife, the type of perfection that is found in finely crafted jewellery.

Clearly we cannot apply these same standards to the construction of ethnic weaponry, but the closer we get to these standards, the better is the fit and finish of the item under consideration.

Thank you for your detailed and precise response, it was extremely helpful for me. I really wasn't kidding when I said 101! While as a collector I feel like a minow swimming among whales here, as a teacher I know that it's my duty as a learner to ask clarifying questions or I simply won't be able to learn. Please forgive my lack of basic knowledge, and be patient if I ask things that seem painfully obvious from the perspective of your many years of experience. Believe me, your answers are very much appreciated!

I'd love to see some of the handwork you did, if you don't mind posting it. If you've posted already, which I'd guess you probably must have, then the link would be great! The fact that you chose to use traditional techniques and tools in the modern age, and that you also attended shows where people were judging based on modern standards, gives you a really great perspective and I'd love to know more about it.