Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

I agree in principal Ariel, & the poster was talking about new pieces... but I still say if you are going to use one old or new, it needs testing!

Ive known 3 blokes carry collectable & sought after kukri as side arms in at least 3 nationality's forces in the last 15 years.

They all collected kukri, had lots of them {old & new.} & took the one they trusted most into combat zones. {2 were special ops types {some US Navy Intelligence unit, Brit.SAS, & a French fighter pilot.} because they were better than the modern made ones. There life, there collections, there choice.

It is a shame if a collectable gets destroyed, I agree, but If I really needed to use one as if my life depended on it {Not that Ill get a call up.}, it would be a good one as well.

If your life may depend on it , you've got to choose the best I think...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used. .

Interesting stuff Alan, yep not many kukris made for stabbing, a very few T spine types perhaps & one ore two other rarities. Now Bayonets on the other hand!

Which type did you use? one of the double edged ones or a 1907?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

Yep the traditional Nepalese ones are all short tanged, then if it breaks at some time its easy to repair, rivets & buttcaps make the repair job harder...

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

That problem is equaly true of new pieces as well STT. Perhaps even more so? {Having never been used or tested.}

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

x rays tell you a bit, practical testing tells you a lot.
Sensible & serious people would use the test I mentioned, It a typical old Gurkha test for weapons but not dissimilar to test used by Wilkinson sword before proofing a sword.

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!.

Faith can not be relayed on! It is Strong belief on the doctrine, hopeful or spiritual conviction rather than proof: Once again Id say test any blade you are truly going to use. Go for proof!

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

Why? It was a clever & powerfull film but the clues in the title.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

That's It Alan, my old early 20th century planes are 10 times the quality of the modern junk, so are some of my old kukri & knives.

But your last paragraph is it! "a lot of old stuff works better."

I now use my great grandmothers best cutlery for evry meal, where the last 3 generations kept it looked away for best, {meeting prospective in-laws for the first time type of best.} I use it every day! It is wonderfull to hold, so well designed & comfortable! it makes every day a little richer.

Am I philistine? Or am I sensible?

Either way STT use whatever you want, but personally id test it! Then your prepared for it to go wrong,during testing!

If it breaks when your focusing on the job in hand at a later date, it will be both more inconvenient & more dangerous.

old or new if its up to the job, it should survive the test! If not its no good for the job!

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Sounds as if we think alike Spiral.

Talking about tools, all my father's hand saws are Disston, bought in the 1920's most of them, maybe one or two in the 1930's. These saws can be set and sharpened, and my understanding is that when they were purchased they cost one hell of a lot of money. If I look at prices on the online auction sites for these old saws, and saw sets and clamps, they still cost a lot of money. But I can buy a brand new Sandvik saw for $8, it works OK, cuts OK, but only for a very short time, then you throw it away and buy a new one, my experience is that these things simply will not sharpen or set.

In respect of kitchen stuff, cutlery, china & etc. I'm not a total barbarian. The Royal Doulton family dinner set, and my grandmother's special order Wedgewood tea set are only dragged out for the visitors. My great grandfather's Staffordshire cheese dish has never been used as long as I've had it --- +50 years now --- because we no longer buy full 12" cheese rounds, we buy a couple of hundred grams in the supermarket as we need it.

I guess you could say I use things that are meant to be used, and/or can be repaired, and try to conserve things that can be damaged or destroyed by over use.

Another modern product that just does not work is the typical hardware store axe. I need to use an axe a fair bit, big block of land, lots of mature trees. The one I use most is a 5 pound Plumb that has been ground to competition geometry and has a competition handle in it. I can cut hardwood all day with this and a brief touch up with a stone brings it back to a shaving edge.

All the other axes I use have similar quality heads, but they have not been given a competition grind. Compare this with the garbage that you can buy in the local hardware store now:- plastic handles, a grind that you can't cut butter with and that is impossible to put a lasting edge on.

Plumb, Keysteel, Kelly, never see these axes anymore.Even the old generic 4 1/2 pound Hytest that used to be everywhere and in fact if properly ground and sharpened was a pretty good axe has disappeared and in its place we find Chinese garbage.

Old tools? Use them, don't put them in a glass case and look at them.

Re my pig bayonet:- not double edge, stamped "3 22 Lithgow" on the ricasso. It saw service in WWII.

[Shakethetrees]

I always feel that using the best is best, unless you might be placing you and it in a situation where something with sentimental value is taken.

Going camping or hunting? Find a well made knife and buy it not it go to the hardware store and grab the nearest piece of a Chinese garbage.

Today we can find, with a few keystrokes, a forum discussing almost anything. If you may need to get something your life could depend on do the research. I would no more take what I know is a great quality knife from my collection and drag it through the woods/water/desert! Great knives are available, but at a cost, as we all know.

One thing I carried was a German made Hubertus switchblade given to me by my Father when he went back there in the early 1990's for a reunion. It's of a small sentimental value, I'd be sick if I lost it, but I know it's of great quality and will do the job it was made for. I do t have to give it the oak plank test to have complete faith in it. The fit and finish is obviously superior to a lot of what's out there. This only works if you truly know knives and not impresses with generally shines things. You must understand how knives are made and what it takes to develop a high degree of finish and mechanical fit.

However, I would not carry his M-3 he carried in WWII, although it is well made, can do the job it was designed for, etc. too much historic/sentimental value here.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sounds as if we think alike Spiral.
.

Strangely so Alan... my 7lb felling axe is an Ellwell datad 1894 it is my favourite splitting axe, sadly I need to make it another new handle. {Last one lasted 18 years. of abuse by myself & a couple of others on occasion...}Although I find 5lb is best for felling, but my 7 lb felling blade was great for splitting, theoretically although not wide like a splitting axe but so well tapered & with the weight would put a cut or split even in a crotch ,knotty or twisted burr piece, big enough to put the wedges in & start pounding with the sledge hammer. Left the modern splitting axes in the shade......

My 1 1/2lb Ellwell is probably 1920s

I only have one mint 20s Diston, but only use it for cutting fine timber in the loft, I use the throwaways in the workshop....

Early Victorian wine glasses I only use on special occasions, {Glass breaks to easily.}

Yep your Lithgow bayonet would be a 1907 pattern, made in March 1922. In good condition that's a few hundred dollars worth today!

I agree about sentimental value STT, those things are best preserved.

spiral

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

...

in 1973, travelling north in the inland passage from seattle to juneau on the USCG Cutter 'Confidence' we encountered a violent snowstorm/gale and i somehow lost my zippo lighter overboard. probably trying to light a cigarette. i smoked like a dirty chimney back then.

two years ago i got an email asking if i was the same wayne kroncke who served on the USCG cutter 'Confidence', i answered yes, of course.she then replied that her sister, walking along the beach in vancouver, canada had found a zippo lighter with my name on it a few years before, and she thought they, now computer literate, should try tracing it on the interweb. she mailed it to me and i have my 'irretrievable' lighter once more. i also stopped smoking almost 20 years ago, but the zippo still works after all that.

shows very little wear for it's years underwater and sand. lost the white, black, blue and red coloured paint in the original engraving and a bit of wear on the hand engraved side.

shows not only the endurance of a zippo, but the power of the internet. and the honesty of a few people in canada. i sent them a thankyou card with a few pounds to cover their expenses and buy them a beer.

we also frequently get iron age and earlier swords, etc. out of the thames river, in fairly remarkable condition.

maybe the bowie will turn up again. stranger things DO happen.

[spiral]

Great stuff Kronckew! what a wonderful story & great return from good people.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a great yarn Kronkew! Love it.

Thanks for the view of the grind Spiral. Looks like it never has been ground to do anything, the grind looks like how it left the factory. Its close to what you can see on just about any generic axe, works just OK for most things, but its essentially a backyard axe, not a specialist tool.

That convex grind would probably work OK on hardwoods as well as softwoods. The way an axe like this bites into timber is that middle of the cutting edge bites first, after that the convex sides of the grind (like on your axe) push the timber apart as the curved cutting edge opens the penetration wider. So after that first penetration the edge doesn't really touch the timber, the convex sides of the grind separate the wood. This sort of grind protects the edge and an axe ground like this doesn't need to be sharpened every time you use it, which makes it a good general purpose thing to throw in the back of the truck. This convex grind is what we call a "rolled edge", different to the "turned edge" that some call a rolled edge that happens when you hit a nail . I've also heard this edge called an "apple seed edge".

But if it were a specialist tool, the grind would be tuned to the type of timber to be cut, the grind may or may not be rolled in a convex profile to the point, and the face of the blade behind the grind would probably be relieved to a hollow grind, which helps to prevent the axe from binding in the cut.

The grind could be convex, or flat, or combinations and the grind that was used would be perfect for the timber to be cut. When I was a kid a lot of bush workers were still using axes as specialist tools, and my memory is that they used to have different axes for different jobs, and they would normally grind and sharpen their axes themselves.

The big difference between a specialist axe and a generic axe is that your ordinary heavy edge grind splits off the chips, the specialist tool slices off the chips, mostly on a 45 degree angle.

Same with saws:- if you used a saw, or saws, every day to earn your living, you set and sharpened those saws yourself, you didn't send them off to a saw doctor every time they got a bit blunt, you sat down after dinner and got your tools ready for tomorrow.

Seems things are a bit different now.

Here's a pic of three axes.

The top one is my 5 pound Plumb. It has been ground to an edge that will handle green hardwoods. Compare the difference between a professional handle and a hardware store handle, such as is on the other two lower axes. This axe went through a bushfire in 1954 and was heat treated again by a local blacksmith in Nowra.

The middle axe is a Keesteel, 4 ½ pound. This is a good axe and if properly ground would perform as well as the Plumb.

The bottom axe is a Kelly Dandenong pattern. This was a favourite farm axe and general purpose work axe for many years in Australia, this is a 4 pound axe. The design would never permit regrinding to make it a specialist tool, it’s a GP axe and must remain so.
During the 1950's the axe pictured here was used by a bloke working for my uncle to trim out felled trees. It got lost in the bush. Around about 1982 I was kicking around one of my uncle's old work sites in the bush, and I found it again.