Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[spiral]

in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge.

In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc.

If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old.

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it.

There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not.

spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

spiral

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

I agree in principal Ariel, & the poster was talking about new pieces... but I still say if you are going to use one old or new, it needs testing!

Ive known 3 blokes carry collectable & sought after kukri as side arms in at least 3 nationality's forces in the last 15 years.

They all collected kukri, had lots of them {old & new.} & took the one they trusted most into combat zones. {2 were special ops types {some US Navy Intelligence unit, Brit.SAS, & a French fighter pilot.} because they were better than the modern made ones. There life, there collections, there choice.

It is a shame if a collectable gets destroyed, I agree, but If I really needed to use one as if my life depended on it {Not that Ill get a call up.}, it would be a good one as well.

If your life may depend on it , you've got to choose the best I think...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used. .

Interesting stuff Alan, yep not many kukris made for stabbing, a very few T spine types perhaps & one ore two other rarities. Now Bayonets on the other hand!

Which type did you use? one of the double edged ones or a 1907?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

Yep the traditional Nepalese ones are all short tanged, then if it breaks at some time its easy to repair, rivets & buttcaps make the repair job harder...

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

That problem is equaly true of new pieces as well STT. Perhaps even more so? {Having never been used or tested.}

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

x rays tell you a bit, practical testing tells you a lot.
Sensible & serious people would use the test I mentioned, It a typical old Gurkha test for weapons but not dissimilar to test used by Wilkinson sword before proofing a sword.

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!.

Faith can not be relayed on! It is Strong belief on the doctrine, hopeful or spiritual conviction rather than proof: Once again Id say test any blade you are truly going to use. Go for proof!

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

Why? It was a clever & powerfull film but the clues in the title.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

That's It Alan, my old early 20th century planes are 10 times the quality of the modern junk, so are some of my old kukri & knives.

But your last paragraph is it! "a lot of old stuff works better."

I now use my great grandmothers best cutlery for evry meal, where the last 3 generations kept it looked away for best, {meeting prospective in-laws for the first time type of best.} I use it every day! It is wonderfull to hold, so well designed & comfortable! it makes every day a little richer.

Am I philistine? Or am I sensible?

Either way STT use whatever you want, but personally id test it! Then your prepared for it to go wrong,during testing!

If it breaks when your focusing on the job in hand at a later date, it will be both more inconvenient & more dangerous.

old or new if its up to the job, it should survive the test! If not its no good for the job!

spiral

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

...

in 1973, travelling north in the inland passage from seattle to juneau on the USCG Cutter 'Confidence' we encountered a violent snowstorm/gale and i somehow lost my zippo lighter overboard. probably trying to light a cigarette. i smoked like a dirty chimney back then.

two years ago i got an email asking if i was the same wayne kroncke who served on the USCG cutter 'Confidence', i answered yes, of course.she then replied that her sister, walking along the beach in vancouver, canada had found a zippo lighter with my name on it a few years before, and she thought they, now computer literate, should try tracing it on the interweb. she mailed it to me and i have my 'irretrievable' lighter once more. i also stopped smoking almost 20 years ago, but the zippo still works after all that.

shows very little wear for it's years underwater and sand. lost the white, black, blue and red coloured paint in the original engraving and a bit of wear on the hand engraved side.

shows not only the endurance of a zippo, but the power of the internet. and the honesty of a few people in canada. i sent them a thankyou card with a few pounds to cover their expenses and buy them a beer.

we also frequently get iron age and earlier swords, etc. out of the thames river, in fairly remarkable condition.

maybe the bowie will turn up again. stranger things DO happen.

[spiral]

Great stuff Kronckew! what a wonderful story & great return from good people.

spiral