New Jersey Ivory ban....

spiral · 15th August 2014, 10:07 AM

Certainly A.G. it is a complex subject with many variables. I am sure it would be an interesting debate!

The last time a huge tonnage of African ivory was released a few years ago with cities permission, elephant poaching roared astronomically, after all a receipt saying ivory was legal, could be used again & again , as after all there is no DNA taken to match the legal document to the ivory.

I am sure De Beers, do many naughty things, many powerful international company's do.

Sadly that wont change.

I guess the fact ivory & particularly rhino horn are a long way from an infinite supply, will have its effect as well.

As you say without harsh punishment of consumers {& I would add poachers, particularly the wealthy organised ones with helicopters etc.. & the armed militia types. & not just some hungry bloke with an old .303 who makes an easy scapegoat.} the demand will remain.

Interestingly, the countries that burn there ivory publicly in huge public piles, don't say where that ivory disappears to afterwards, when they show a photo of a pile of ashes.

After all ivory may crack a bit but it doesn't burn on an open fire, that's just the logs in the pile & a splash of accelerant....

I would like the Elephant & rhino populations to recover from where they are today.... But I don't believe in destroying antiques. That wont help anyone or anything. Its vandalism.

As for Trade bans in the west... I guess at least one can keep what ones already got.

Will any of it really work? probably not...

spiral

Sajen · 15th August 2014, 10:29 AM

Destroying antiques in old collections would in my eyes the same what the Taliban has done in Afgahnistan with the Buddha statues from Bamiyan in 2001 and don't will help to save elephants or rhinos. Like Spiral said it's pure vandalism.

Lee · 15th August 2014, 12:47 PM

I have always despised laws and regulations that overreach whatever legitimate aims they have in an effort to facilitate easy, ignorant enforcement. The assault on genuine, legitimate antiques is despicable, as are the politicians who promulgate same. I find the arguments that such overreach will protect a single endangered wild animal entirely specious. I welcome well conceived and competently written laws and regulations that would protect these animals without such gratuitous overreach. I expect that these present laws and regulations will come under judicial scrutiny in the US in due course, as where they exceed legitimate aims they surely have ventured into the territory of illegal seizure.

spiral · 15th August 2014, 04:19 PM

Indeed Sajen pure vandalism.

I don't know enough about the US legal system to comment Lee, but from what you say this may be overturned?

If so your justice system works better than the UK... {not that that's difficult...}

I still rather think such laws will become the norm in the more advanced world. europe, US Oz etc. in time.

A law that targets current professional criminals & is properly enforced would be a better approach than turning every collector into a criminal if he passes on a genuine antique.

But I guess it easy to catch non professional or accidental criminals & pretend something efficient & meaningful is going on, to the electorate.

spiral

estcrh · 15th August 2014, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I expect that these present laws and regulations will come under judicial scrutiny in the US in due course, as where they exceed legitimate aims they surely have ventured into the territory of illegal seizure.

Lee, as soon as a wealthy collector with influence of some kind realizes that his or her collection is in danger of being labeled as illegal / unsellable etc we will see exceptions make for antiques which contain ivory, I have no doubt.

spiral · 15th August 2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Lee, as soon as a wealthy collector with influence of some kind realizes that his or her collection is in danger of being labeled as illegal / unsellable etc we will see exceptions make for antiques which contain ivory, I have no doubt.

Well that's possible, all country's have corruptible or influenced politician's.

But hopefully it takes more than one rich man to change the state of law in the land of the free? At least a couple of dozen oil magnates, net Mongols & international arms dealers of missiles & other mass expense technology of destruction id hope!

{Weve come a long way from a pointed stone & lumpy stick in the last 2000 years!

}

Unsaleable shouldn't be a problem to the truly rich... they don't need to sell from there collection's & can still acquire more, even illegally if they so wish... with impunity probably, if they are so influential...

It us poorer collectors who have to decide whether to keep or sell, before laws make that decision for us.

In truth I made my choices a few years back , when I saw which way the wind was blowing.

spiral

Lee · 15th August 2014, 11:24 PM

There will be the connected rich collectors and the auction houses and others in the art trade who will hire the required legal talent to deal with this absurd situation. ... I hope.

drac2k · 16th August 2014, 05:39 AM

I wouldn't count on it ; I think that is what all of the Indian artifact collectors were saying ! While we are waiting for them to do something, the government(s), advance their agenda. It is about control ; each incremental step they take , each erosion of personal freedom, are rights lost ,never to be regained .
Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of Africans have died of Malaria because of the banning of DDT; it was said to have thinned the eagle eggshell.Does the math add up ? Is each eagle worth 100,00 lives? Last year the Norfolk Airport shredded 3 or 4 eagles,which it sucked through plane engines ;should we ban jets as well ? Each loss of a privilege has a "Butterfly Effect:"
"for the want of a nail a shoe was lost, for the want of a shoe, a horse was lost ............"

spiral · 16th August 2014, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

There will be the connected rich collectors and the auction houses and others in the art trade who will hire the required legal talent to deal with this absurd situation. ... I hope.

Interestingly a few years ago a big auction house in the UK kept selling whole mounted Rhino horns even when customs said they shouldn't, they stated the would win in court when it came to it, arguing about legal definitions..

Instead of taking them to court within 6 months the Government just introduced even tougher & more detailed laws that they felt unable to argue against.

spiral

16th August 2014, 05:39 AM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	I wouldn't count on it ; I think that is what all of the Indian artifact collectors were saying ! While we are waiting for them to do something, the government(s), advance their agenda. It is about control ; each incremental step they take , each erosion of personal freedom, are rights lost ,never to be regained . Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of Africans have died of Malaria because of the banning of DDT; it was said to have thinned the eagle eggshell.Does the math add up ? Is each eagle worth 100,00 lives? Last year the Norfolk Airport shredded 3 or 4 eagles,which it sucked through plane engines ;should we ban jets as well ? Each loss of a privilege has a "Butterfly Effect:" "for the want of a nail a shoe was lost, for the want of a shoe, a horse was lost ............" Last edited by drac2k; 16th August 2014 at 06:37 AM.

15th August 2014, 10:07 AM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Certainly A.G. it is a complex subject with many variables. I am sure it would be an interesting debate! The last time a huge tonnage of African ivory was released a few years ago with cities permission, elephant poaching roared astronomically, after all a receipt saying ivory was legal, could be used again & again , as after all there is no DNA taken to match the legal document to the ivory. I am sure De Beers, do many naughty things, many powerful international company's do. Sadly that wont change. I guess the fact ivory & particularly rhino horn are a long way from an infinite supply, will have its effect as well. As you say without harsh punishment of consumers {& I would add poachers, particularly the wealthy organised ones with helicopters etc.. & the armed militia types. & not just some hungry bloke with an old .303 who makes an easy scapegoat.} the demand will remain. Interestingly, the countries that burn there ivory publicly in huge public piles, don't say where that ivory disappears to afterwards, when they show a photo of a pile of ashes. After all ivory may crack a bit but it doesn't burn on an open fire, that's just the logs in the pile & a splash of accelerant.... I would like the Elephant & rhino populations to recover from where they are today.... But I don't believe in destroying antiques. That wont help anyone or anything. Its vandalism. As for Trade bans in the west... I guess at least one can keep what ones already got. Will any of it really work? probably not... spiral

15th August 2014, 10:29 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Destroying antiques in old collections would in my eyes the same what the Taliban has done in Afgahnistan with the Buddha statues from Bamiyan in 2001 and don't will help to save elephants or rhinos. Like Spiral said it's pure vandalism.

15th August 2014, 12:47 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	I have always despised laws and regulations that overreach whatever legitimate aims they have in an effort to facilitate easy, ignorant enforcement. The assault on genuine, legitimate antiques is despicable, as are the politicians who promulgate same. I find the arguments that such overreach will protect a single endangered wild animal entirely specious. I welcome well conceived and competently written laws and regulations that would protect these animals without such gratuitous overreach. I expect that these present laws and regulations will come under judicial scrutiny in the US in due course, as where they exceed legitimate aims they surely have ventured into the territory of illegal seizure.

15th August 2014, 04:19 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Indeed Sajen pure vandalism. I don't know enough about the US legal system to comment Lee, but from what you say this may be overturned? If so your justice system works better than the UK... {not that that's difficult...} I still rather think such laws will become the norm in the more advanced world. europe, US Oz etc. in time. A law that targets current professional criminals & is properly enforced would be a better approach than turning every collector into a criminal if he passes on a genuine antique. But I guess it easy to catch non professional or accidental criminals & pretend something efficient & meaningful is going on, to the electorate. spiral

15th August 2014, 11:24 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	There will be the connected rich collectors and the auction houses and others in the art trade who will hire the required legal talent to deal with this absurd situation. ... I hope.