My Katar Collection

[Jim McDougall]

OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism.
I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok let me end this discussion.

Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you.

James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one.

Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows?
I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book.

Jens

[spiral]

Amongst many more "practical" trades I worked as a teacher & counsellor for many years.

I found that if you just tell someone the answers... they learn nothing other than what you say. {if that.}

Help them to see, think & discover the answer to the the question's themselves {with gentle guidance where necessary.} & they grow & learn & will even notice & make other observations on other items.

Its the difference between reading a child a book & teaching them to read.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to James' katar, I think the dealers assessment was pretty accurate, though as always further research will reveal more detailed answers. I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.

In James' katar, these decorative 'peacocks' are perhaps relatively unrecognizable because they have been a bit more stylized, however they are in the same primary configuration and location that Jens showed in the example he posted.
In arms decoration and features, there are many elements which have become either highly stylized or often vestigially applied as progressively used on later examples or perhaps in varying workshops by different artisans. It is sometimes the case where these 'become' interpretive as with someone copying words in a foreign alphabet when they do not speak the language.

These kinds of nuances may often offer clues to the proper identification of a weapon as to period, or perhaps even regional classification , remembering of course that these speculations remain circumstancial in most cases.
These are most certainly similar guidelines in identification of firearms, and of course though firearms and edged weapons are essentially 'apples and oranges' functionally , their decorative motifs are often very related.

I have often found valuable clues to identifying motifs etc on many edged weapons in books which are specifically on firearms , case in point, Robert Elgood's, "Firearms of the Islamic World". As Jens mentioned, many clues turn up in books like 'Zebrowski', which is focused on material culture, not arms in particular.

Naturally, for more direct information, Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is probably the most reliable and comprehensive source for these kinds of katars as far as data. As all of us, as arms researchers are aware, these more direct references are the benchmarks, and often provide the clues and direction for in depth research in continuation.

So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.........So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

Everything you ever wanted to know about Indian peacocks, readable online.


"Peacock in Indian Art, Thought and Literature" by Krishna Lal, Abhinav Publications, 2006.

The National Bird Of India Is The Peacock. Majestic And Graceful, With A Beautiful From And Charming Colours, It Caught The Fancy Of The Indian Artisans From Early Times, Who Used It Profusely In Their Artistic Creations. From The Harappan Period To The Present Day, In Every Art Expression, The Peacock Is Beautifully Portrayed. It Has Been Depicted As A Sacred Bird; Mount Of Kartikeya, An Important Deity Of Hindu Pantheon And An Absent Lover In The Miniature Paintings.The Present Monograph Is An In Depth Study Of All Aspects Related To This Bird Its Habitat, History, Narration In Indian Mythology And Literature, Various Forms, Its Uses And Medicinal Properties Mentioned In Ancient Texts. 107 Carefully Selected Colourful Illustrations And 25 Sketches On The Subject Show Various Aspects Of Peacock In Art Forms.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=wuotb7YyrigC