My Katar Collection

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

I can honestly say that in well over four decades of the study of arms, and in more instances I can recount in conversations with authors, collectors, dealers, and well known scholars on these subjects...often times their retorts or responses may have been perceived as brusque or blunt, but 'rude' is not a term I would use. These men indeed shared their knowledge with me, but bluntly challenged me to find answers on my own as well . That message served me well, and I did, and they taught me exactly what Jens tried to say.......if you intend to pursue a field of study, it must be a serious approach and answers are out there, but must be found, not simply handed over.

I have written on these forums for over 17 years (2004 was a benchmark when the forum was reorganized) and Jens was writing here before then as well.
He has become one of the foremost authorities on katars and tulwars (though he will never admit it!) and has been the very person most here turn to on these arms for a these years.
I resent the 'rude' comment about Jens ...period!

He has openly shared his knowledge here with countless members and readers over all these years, and entirely advanced all of our knowledge on these arms, together. I have written here as long , and spent countless hours and days and often money researching in order to offer as much information as possible to learn with others here.....so has Jens.

I emphatically note this not only as a friend of Jens, but proudly as a colleague here who is boundlessly grateful for all he has openly shared.
His articles are of course involving purchase, but as anyone who has published knows, it is because they are in published journals which are not free.

[JamesKelly]

As the person who started all this mess I wish to emphasize that I never felt insulted by Jens nor did I regard him as rude. Indeed, he has my sympathy as an expert answering questions from the totally ignorant. In this field I am that ignorant person.

I appreciate the knowledge he has imparted.

My introduction to arms literature came in the spring of 1951 when I first read my father's book The Kentucky Rifle, by Captain John G.W. Dillin. I have since acquired a fair size library on firearms, North American history, historical metallurgy and assorted other matters. For various reasons i have become interested in edged weapons, for the most part Indian.

Along with the weapons themselves one attraction is the impressive intellectual level of this site. I do not have decades left to study this new (to me) field, but I surely do like to learn what I can about those weapons that I have.

[Jim McDougall]

Very graciously put James, and as I noted in my comments, your posts were well placed as were your responses, and the unfortunate turn in the meter of this thread had nothing to do with you, and resulted entirely from the unwarranted intervention which had nothing to do with the discussion.

As Jens has well noted, the study of Indian arms is far from a topic which has concise answers and neatly categorized classifications for its weapons in many, if not most cases. In such cases, even the many references and volumes published on these arms do not come close to definitive answers which constantly arise with the many cross influenced forms and variants.
I would not use to the term 'ignorance' toward anyone baffled by this formidable topic but with an interest in them, as few can claim exact knowledge and infallible knowledge on them.

While you may modestly disclaim specific knowledge in certain fields, your interest and desire to learn is well placed here, and your grace and courtesy an exemplary lesson in the gentlemanly discussions we strive for.
Thank you so much!

P.S. I have to admit I really have trouble with these peacocks too!!!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

Jim, of course Mr Kelly said nothing, if he did then he risked Jens doing exactly what he did when I mentioned his rude answer, which was to threaten to not post here anymore. How would you know that I have no interest in katars, do you think I am reading these posts for nothing, as for having nothing to add, I am reading the posts to learn, like many others who read the post here but do not "add" anything.

I belong to many different forums on many different subjects. People with superior knowledge go to these forums to share what they know, others go to learn. This post was just such a post, a person asked for some comments on an item he obviously knows little about. Jens pointed out something he obviously know a lot about but instead of explaining further he said this.

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.Jens

Jens could have easily shown were the peacocks were located and he could have easily recommended some books for people to read on the subject of Indian decorations (which he later did). What does his ownership of "six or seven meters" of books have to do with this, and his snarky smart ass "A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum" was totally uncalled for.

Then because one person (me) dares to express an opinion on his answer he threatens to stop posting here, what kind of childish reply is that, so he is going to punish all forum members else because I made a comment. When someone who is an authority on any subject answers people who he knows do not have the same level of knowledge in that manner it is rude, that is my personal opinion on the subject, which comes from many years of discussing arms and armor on various forums with some very knowledgeable people who never answer a less knowledgeable forum member that way.

[Jim McDougall]

OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism.
I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok let me end this discussion.

Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you.

James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one.

Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows?
I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book.

Jens

[spiral]

Amongst many more "practical" trades I worked as a teacher & counsellor for many years.

I found that if you just tell someone the answers... they learn nothing other than what you say. {if that.}

Help them to see, think & discover the answer to the the question's themselves {with gentle guidance where necessary.} & they grow & learn & will even notice & make other observations on other items.

Its the difference between reading a child a book & teaching them to read.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to James' katar, I think the dealers assessment was pretty accurate, though as always further research will reveal more detailed answers. I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.

In James' katar, these decorative 'peacocks' are perhaps relatively unrecognizable because they have been a bit more stylized, however they are in the same primary configuration and location that Jens showed in the example he posted.
In arms decoration and features, there are many elements which have become either highly stylized or often vestigially applied as progressively used on later examples or perhaps in varying workshops by different artisans. It is sometimes the case where these 'become' interpretive as with someone copying words in a foreign alphabet when they do not speak the language.

These kinds of nuances may often offer clues to the proper identification of a weapon as to period, or perhaps even regional classification , remembering of course that these speculations remain circumstancial in most cases.
These are most certainly similar guidelines in identification of firearms, and of course though firearms and edged weapons are essentially 'apples and oranges' functionally , their decorative motifs are often very related.

I have often found valuable clues to identifying motifs etc on many edged weapons in books which are specifically on firearms , case in point, Robert Elgood's, "Firearms of the Islamic World". As Jens mentioned, many clues turn up in books like 'Zebrowski', which is focused on material culture, not arms in particular.

Naturally, for more direct information, Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is probably the most reliable and comprehensive source for these kinds of katars as far as data. As all of us, as arms researchers are aware, these more direct references are the benchmarks, and often provide the clues and direction for in depth research in continuation.

So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.........So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

Everything you ever wanted to know about Indian peacocks, readable online.


"Peacock in Indian Art, Thought and Literature" by Krishna Lal, Abhinav Publications, 2006.

The National Bird Of India Is The Peacock. Majestic And Graceful, With A Beautiful From And Charming Colours, It Caught The Fancy Of The Indian Artisans From Early Times, Who Used It Profusely In Their Artistic Creations. From The Harappan Period To The Present Day, In Every Art Expression, The Peacock Is Beautifully Portrayed. It Has Been Depicted As A Sacred Bird; Mount Of Kartikeya, An Important Deity Of Hindu Pantheon And An Absent Lover In The Miniature Paintings.The Present Monograph Is An In Depth Study Of All Aspects Related To This Bird Its Habitat, History, Narration In Indian Mythology And Literature, Various Forms, Its Uses And Medicinal Properties Mentioned In Ancient Texts. 107 Carefully Selected Colourful Illustrations And 25 Sketches On The Subject Show Various Aspects Of Peacock In Art Forms.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=wuotb7YyrigC