Rare sword of the Timor group

Ian · 5th August 2014, 10:21 PM

This sword finished on eBay today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121399202351...84.m1423.l2649

It is a typical example of a rare Timorese sword from the islands of Savu and Roti. It bears a striking resemblance to the sword shown in Fig. 590, p. 139 of Albert van Zonneveld’s book, Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Zwartenkot Art Books:Leiden, 2001.

The sword corresponds to a type (e) Timorese sword, and this is what van Zonneveld has to say about these swords:

“As are all hilts of the Timor group, type (e) is made of buffalo horn, but it is here yellowish instead of black. It has a surprisingly short shaft, the lower half of which is quite broad. At the top we find a large, flat almost square part protruding towards the edge and resembling a kind of flag. The edge’s side is incised with two shallow, oblique V-shaped indentations. The square’s sides are, with the exception of the lower side, pierced and provided with tufts of goat hair. The entire hilt is decorated with carvings. In the centre of the sides we see an elevated circle with a protruding central point.

The blades are of local provenance and always straight. The back curves towards the edge.

The scabbard is made of two wooden pieces, tied together with rattan. The binding can continue over the scabbard’s entire length. Its mouth can be very broad, and towards the back somewhat less broadened, or hardly broader than the hilt’s stem. The mouth is always decorated with carving resembling that on the hilt, also with a raised central ‘eye.’ The scabbard has an angled foot, facing towards the edge side. This foot is decorated with carving which always includes a central raised circle.”

Given the wear and tear on the scabbard and hilt, I think this one is probably late 19th Century. Unfortunately the blade has been cleaned recently. I shall try to post more pictures after it arrives.

Ian.

Sajen · 5th August 2014, 11:28 PM

Hello Ian,

what a great score! And a bargain as well.

Nearly can't believe that nobody else have seen it. I don't would worry about the cleaned blade, a good polish and etch will bring out the lamination which is surly present. I am green with envy!!! Congratulations for this great addition to your collection.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 5th August 2014, 11:35 PM

Thanks Detlef. Yes, I was lucky that nobody else saw this and realized that it was not a Sarawak/Malay piece (as advertised).

Ian.

VANDOO · 6th August 2014, 01:19 AM

CONGRADULATIONS!! A VERY NICE OLDER SWORD DONE UP THE TRADITIONAL WAY WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES AND AT A PRICE THAT WILL GIVE PLEASURE TO ITS CURRENT OWNER OVER THE YEARS WHENEVER HE LOOKS AT IT. ENJOY

Robert · 6th August 2014, 03:08 AM

Very, very nice score Ian. I thought that I had found some great deals on epray, but this is right there with the West Sumba sword I found a few years back. My congratulation to you on this. I cannot wait for the new photos to be posted after it has arrived and you have had a chance to do a little cleaning and preservation work to it.

Sajen · 25th August 2014, 08:08 AM

Any updates Ian?

Ian · 25th August 2014, 04:05 PM

I have received the sword and am providing it with some cleaning. More pictures coming shortly.

Ian.

Robert · 25th August 2014, 06:17 PM

Wonderful news Ian, can't wait to see the new photos.

Best,
Robert

Marcus · 31st October 2015, 11:25 PM

Over a year and still no picture? I just comitted to a Timor sword on Oriental Arms.

BANDOOK · 1st November 2015, 10:04 AM

HI IAN,AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY SWORD FROM THE TIMORESE GROUP,ALOR SWORD
The scabbard is made of two wooden pieces, tied together with rattan. The binding can continue over the scabbard’s entire length. Its mouth can be very broad, and towards the back somewhat less broadened, or hardly broader than the hilt’s stem. The mouth is always decorated with carving resembling that on the hilt, also with a raised central ‘eye.’ The scabbard has an angled foot, facing towards the edge side. This foot is decorated with carving which always includes a central raised circle.”
THE ABOVE IS SEEN CLEARLY IN MY SWORD,CHEERS AND THANKS FOR POSTING

Sajen · 1st November 2015, 10:13 AM

Wow, the blade seems to have seen a lot of action!

I would clean the blade from rust.

Regards,
Detlef

BANDOOK · 1st November 2015, 10:18 AM

THANKS DETLEF,I SAW THIS POST TODAY WHICH WAS POSTED BY IAN A YEAR BACK,I HAVE NOT TOUCHED THIS SWORD SINCE AGES AND ONLY TO PHOTOGRAPH IT TODAY,SO WILL PUT SOME LUBRICANTS /ANTIRUST ,CHEERS

Ian · 1st November 2015, 01:42 PM

Sorry guys. My bad. I got side tracked and never cleaned this one up. Will try to get it done in the next few days and post more pics.

Nice example Bandook. Thank for sharing the pics.

Ian.

kai · 1st November 2015, 10:29 PM

Hello Marcus,

Quote:

I just comitted to a Timor sword on Oriental Arms.

I'm afraid Artzi got that one wrong - it's an alamang/alameng, a typical Buginese/Makassarese sword. While these do show up elsewhere in Bugis-influenced areas, I don't think there is any reason to trace this examples' origin to the wider Timor group...

Regards,
Kai

Marcus · 2nd November 2015, 02:13 AM

I do not really agree. I think it is distinct from the alamang type swords, although it is not that typical of the Timor group either.

Sajen · 2nd November 2015, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

I do not really agree. I think it is distinct from the alamang type swords, although it is not that typical of the Timor group either.

Hello Marcus,

when it is the shown sword I have to agree with Kai, it's a typical Bugis alamang, please compare with this example from my own collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=alamang
Even a knowledgeable dealer can be wrong, sorry Artzi.

Best regards,
Detlef

BANDOOK · 2nd November 2015, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Sorry guys. My bad. I got side tracked and never cleaned this one up. Will try to get it done in the next few days and post more pics.

Nice example Bandook. Thank for sharing the pics.

Ian.

THANKS IAN,PLEASE COULD YOU TELL ME HOW OLD MY SWORD WOULD BE ROUGHLY,CHEERS RAJESH

Oriental-Arms · 2nd November 2015, 05:49 PM

I stand corrected. Alamang sword indeed. My apologies

Ian · 2nd November 2015, 11:11 PM

Hi Rajesh:

I would think late 19th or early 20th C judging from the overall appearance. Perhaps a little more recent. Circa 1900 would be my best guess.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

THANKS IAN,PLEASE COULD YOU TELL ME HOW OLD MY SWORD WOULD BE ROUGHLY,CHEERS RAJESH

BANDOOK · 4th November 2015, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Rajesh:

I would think late 19th or early 20th C judging from the overall appearance. Perhaps a little more recent. Circa 1900 would be my best guess.

Ian.

appreciate Ian,cheers

Robert · 22nd August 2017, 04:32 AM

When searching for something completely different I came across this older thread and was hoping that by my bringing it up again that Ian and Bandook might post new photos of their very interesting and rare swords if they have had the chance to cleaned them.

Best,
Robert

5th August 2014, 10:21 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Rare sword of the Timor group This sword finished on eBay today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121399202351...84.m1423.l2649 It is a typical example of a rare Timorese sword from the islands of Savu and Roti. It bears a striking resemblance to the sword shown in Fig. 590, p. 139 of Albert van Zonneveld’s book, Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Zwartenkot Art Books:Leiden, 2001. The sword corresponds to a type (e) Timorese sword, and this is what van Zonneveld has to say about these swords: “As are all hilts of the Timor group, type (e) is made of buffalo horn, but it is here yellowish instead of black. It has a surprisingly short shaft, the lower half of which is quite broad. At the top we find a large, flat almost square part protruding towards the edge and resembling a kind of flag. The edge’s side is incised with two shallow, oblique V-shaped indentations. The square’s sides are, with the exception of the lower side, pierced and provided with tufts of goat hair. The entire hilt is decorated with carvings. In the centre of the sides we see an elevated circle with a protruding central point. The blades are of local provenance and always straight. The back curves towards the edge. The scabbard is made of two wooden pieces, tied together with rattan. The binding can continue over the scabbard’s entire length. Its mouth can be very broad, and towards the back somewhat less broadened, or hardly broader than the hilt’s stem. The mouth is always decorated with carving resembling that on the hilt, also with a raised central ‘eye.’ The scabbard has an angled foot, facing towards the edge side. This foot is decorated with carving which always includes a central raised circle.” Given the wear and tear on the scabbard and hilt, I think this one is probably late 19th Century. Unfortunately the blade has been cleaned recently. I shall try to post more pictures after it arrives. Ian. Attached Images

5th August 2014, 11:35 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Thanks Detlef. Yes, I was lucky that nobody else saw this and realized that it was not a Sarawak/Malay piece (as advertised). Ian. Last edited by Ian; 6th August 2014 at 04:23 AM.

31st October 2015, 11:25 PM	#9
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	pictures Over a year and still no picture? I just comitted to a Timor sword on Oriental Arms.

1st November 2015, 10:04 AM	#10
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	Timorese sword HI IAN,AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY SWORD FROM THE TIMORESE GROUP,ALOR SWORD The scabbard is made of two wooden pieces, tied together with rattan. The binding can continue over the scabbard’s entire length. Its mouth can be very broad, and towards the back somewhat less broadened, or hardly broader than the hilt’s stem. The mouth is always decorated with carving resembling that on the hilt, also with a raised central ‘eye.’ The scabbard has an angled foot, facing towards the edge side. This foot is decorated with carving which always includes a central raised circle.” THE ABOVE IS SEEN CLEARLY IN MY SWORD,CHEERS AND THANKS FOR POSTING Attached Images Last edited by BANDOOK; 1st November 2015 at 10:27 AM.

1st November 2015, 01:42 PM	#13
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Sorry guys Sorry guys. My bad. I got side tracked and never cleaned this one up. Will try to get it done in the next few days and post more pics. Nice example Bandook. Thank for sharing the pics. Ian.

5th August 2014, 11:28 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hello Ian, what a great score! And a bargain as well. Nearly can't believe that nobody else have seen it. I don't would worry about the cleaned blade, a good polish and etch will bring out the lamination which is surly present. I am green with envy!!! Congratulations for this great addition to your collection. Regards, Detlef

6th August 2014, 01:19 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS!! A VERY NICE OLDER SWORD DONE UP THE TRADITIONAL WAY WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES AND AT A PRICE THAT WILL GIVE PLEASURE TO ITS CURRENT OWNER OVER THE YEARS WHENEVER HE LOOKS AT IT. ENJOY

6th August 2014, 03:08 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Very, very nice score Ian. I thought that I had found some great deals on epray, but this is right there with the West Sumba sword I found a few years back. My congratulation to you on this. I cannot wait for the new photos to be posted after it has arrived and you have had a chance to do a little cleaning and preservation work to it.

25th August 2014, 08:08 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Any updates Ian?

25th August 2014, 04:05 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	I have received the sword and am providing it with some cleaning. More pictures coming shortly. Ian.

25th August 2014, 06:17 PM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Wonderful news Ian, can't wait to see the new photos. Best, Robert

1st November 2015, 10:13 AM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Wow, the blade seems to have seen a lot of action! I would clean the blade from rust. Regards, Detlef

1st November 2015, 10:18 AM	#12
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	THANKS DETLEF,I SAW THIS POST TODAY WHICH WAS POSTED BY IAN A YEAR BACK,I HAVE NOT TOUCHED THIS SWORD SINCE AGES AND ONLY TO PHOTOGRAPH IT TODAY,SO WILL PUT SOME LUBRICANTS /ANTIRUST ,CHEERS

2nd November 2015, 02:13 AM	#15
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	"Artzi got that one wrong" I do not really agree. I think it is distinct from the alamang type swords, although it is not that typical of the Timor group either.

2nd November 2015, 05:49 PM	#18
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	I stand corrected. Alamang sword indeed. My apologies

22nd August 2017, 04:32 AM	#21
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	When searching for something completely different I came across this older thread and was hoping that by my bringing it up again that Ian and Bandook might post new photos of their very interesting and rare swords if they have had the chance to cleaned them. Best, Robert