The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Hello Chaps!

Heres a little montage of pictures to illustrate my view of Omani sword type 4... The straight bladed fighting Kattara.

First we have Mr. Tipu Tip. {As the Colonial English called him for a laugh...} Whos Real name was Hamed bin Mohammed.

Then we have Mr. Tiippy with A couple of other Arabs & Some Brit Colonial Officer type. Notice how they all wear fighting Swords, 2 Omani Shamsir & a type 4, Stiff bladed fighting Kattara.

Then this fascinating Bunch of Baluchi cutthroats employed by the Omanis as the Baluchis made good soldiers & Guards. Note straight bladed Saif helb by middle chap amongst all the shamshirs.

I suspect Ibrahim will say this bloke was waiting for the band to arrive so they could all have a dance, But personaly I reckon , hes a cold stome killer with a weapon... hes not waiting for top of the pops to start!

Then a number of Omani. Zanzibari rulers are presented to show the importance of wearing a combat worthy sword as a ruler.

They weren't going to wave them in the air & have a sing song! They were weapons carried to show there power... as were Tippy toes... Who carried both straight & curved kattara as illustrated above.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral, I am not sure what you are researching by illustrating these pictures ...what is your point here please...? I see dancing straight saifs and some Shamshiirs worn by dignitories...only...and some Khanjars of the Royal style..To a man these are being worn as a Badge of Office.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are a couple of old English drawings from Zanzibar.
Artists impressions were more than accurate in the hey day of world travel, conquest and documentation as they had no other means in capturing details other than writing.

Dancing with curved swords and fighting with straight swords.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you for the pictures... I just saw these ... Sketches are always interesting...These show a tribal dance by Africans with some sort of African swords...Manga generally only danced with straight flexible swords...These arent Manga.( In Zanzibar only the Omani contingent were known as Manga)

The same goes for your skirmish at sea... African swordsmen~african swords.

Thank you for your insight.

Other curved sword dancing will surface in the near future.

The straight swords pictured are however long handled Saif in the hands of Zanzibar slavers, look close to their rifles too and their faces too, they are from Zanzibar, one of the many accounts written about in the 1870's.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Thank you for your insight.

Other curved sword dancing will surface in the near future.

The straight swords pictured are however long handled Saif in the hands of Zanzibar slavers, look close to their rifles too and their faces too, they are from Zanzibar, one of the many accounts written about in the 1870's.

I doubt they are anything other than tribal Africans in the employ of some slaver group... Not Omani. Zanzibari perhaps...but not Omanis. Africans used different weaponry. I wrote extensively about Ingrams accounts of the Zanzibari population ...they are distinctly different... he mentions the dancing and which groups used what swords..In fact generally speaking this is the region I commenced my research ... Zanzibar... since it is pivotal to the question when did the Omani dancing sword adopt the Slavers sword hilt?

Curved sword dancing...I mentioned several times that for dancing if the Omani Dancing sword was for some reason not available then the exponents in the Funun sparring competition could use another sword... I have seen this done in the UAE... Where a shield was unavailable a sandal could suffice...I have seen it done with curved Kattara and sandal ...but only rarely.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I doubt they are anything other than tribal Africans in the employ of some slaver group... Not Omani. Zanzibari perhaps...but not Omanis. Africans used different weaponry. I wrote extensively about Ingrams accounts of the Zanzibari population ...they are distinctly different... he mentions the dancing and which groups used what swords..In fact generally speaking this is the region I commenced my research ... Zanzibar... since it is pivotal to the question when did the Omani dancing sword adopt the Slavers sword hilt?

Curved sword dancing...I mentioned several times that for dancing if the Omani Dancing sword was for some reason not available then the exponents in the Funun sparring competition could use another sword... I have seen this done in the UAE... Where a shield was unavailable a sandal could suffice...I have seen it done with curved Kattara and sandal ...but only rarely.

I feel you greatly underplay the importance of Oman Zanzibar and Oman proper in relation to these sword.

I think the more valid question here is at what point did the Omani make this long handled fighting sword in to the sword for which it is respected today, the dance type that it is now as I am more tha sure they all danced with older swords in older times.

Personally, with all that is at hand, circa 1900 would be more appropriate to see this change from the dances with fighting sword in to the specific buzz bending dance sword type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Here are a couple of old English drawings from Zanzibar.
Artists impressions were more than accurate in the hey day of world travel, conquest and documentation as they had no other means in capturing details other than writing.

Dancing with curved swords and fighting with straight swords.

Gavin

Thank you for the pictures... I just saw these ... Sketches are always interesting...These show a tribal dance by Africans with some sort of African swords...

Manga generally only danced with straight flexible swords...These arent Manga.( In Zanzibar only the Omani contingent were known as Manga so only they danced with their straight dancing swords)

The same goes for your skirmish at sea... African swordsmen~african swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
When describing the pictures in post#68 of the closed thread you wrote
"The long hilt...and about which there has been all this confusion...added recently in various degrees of splendour to such blades as German/ Ethiopian and given Omani scabbards etc...in Muttrah from 1970." and there was only one picture of a long hilt, so I thought you were referring to that. That was what confused me. And to be ultra clear, the hilt illustrated is on a flexible dancing sword blade?
Very best wishes
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Ibrahim,
When describing the pictures in post#68 of the closed thread you wrote
"The long hilt...and about which there has been all this confusion...added recently in various degrees of splendour to such blades as German/ Ethiopian and given Omani scabbards etc...in Muttrah from 1970." and there was only one picture of a long hilt, so I thought you were referring to that. That was what confused me. And to be ultra clear, the hilt illustrated is on a flexible dancing sword blade?
Very best wishes
Richard

Salaams Richard ~ see http://www.baitalzubairmuseum.com/2006.htm which is the cover page for Omani Swords at the Bayt al Zubair museum Muscat. That is the hilt of a dancing sword in their collection. I have placed many on Forum on threads like Kattara for comment and this one ... To be classed as a dancing sword these blades must be very flexible ... stiff blades rehilted since 1970 just do not get selected by Omani men... because they are unable to buzz the blades in the air...Thus it is a non starter as an Omani dancing sword...and since they are an invention of the souk merchants from 1970 onwards they are classed as Tourist Swords... I really cannot think of another category in which to stick them...I have personally witnessed blade switches with extremely good blades...Solingen and so on but I cannot form a new sword category based on these ...no matter how excellent the blades are.

Reghards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral, I am not sure what you are researching by illustrating these pictures ...what is your point here please...? I see dancing straight saifs and some Shamshiirs worn by dignitories...only...and some Khanjars of the Royal style..To a man these are being worn as a Badge of Office.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sorry my answer was to in depth for you Ibrahim.

Strange You could not even see or recognise the type 2 Kattera carried by Tippi tu.

Which I guess rather goes to show , rather like the shamshirs... leaders carried real weapons, not dancing swords!

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by spiral

Strange You could not even see or recognise the type 2 Kattera carried by Tippi tu.

Which I guess rather goes to show , rather like the shamshirs... leaders carried real weapons, not dancing swords!

Spiral

I see you missed the above post Ibrahim..

Here is a picture of Tipu Tip carrying a type 2 curved Fighting Kattara.

& a type 4 straight fighting Kattara.

There both weapons & badges of Office, an old scoundrel like Tipy wouldn't carry anything else in reality would he...

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I see you missed the above post Ibrahim..

Here is a picture of Tipu Tip carrying a type 2 curved Fighting Kattara.

& a type 4 straight fighting Kattara.

There both weapons & badges of Office, an old scoundrel like Tipy wouldn't carry anything else in reality would he...

Spiral

Salaams Spiral,
No such thing as the typology you suggest...however, if you feel there is a case please prove it...

You may observe the Badge of Office designation on all Omani Swords..and Khanjars. It was a primary function in all cases.

Tipu Tip is shown with his heraldic dancing sword and the others are as I have described... Badge of Office in every case. These all had VIP status, even Tipu Tip ~ who enjoyed virtual Royal Status in his own right in much of Central Africa and especially around the Falls region which he dominated. He was half Swahili ~ half Omani ...see Kattara for comments on my description of him.

Did you know he was blind...? Perhaps you thought he could weild a sword? In his case the sword was very much his badge of Office. I imagine that his retainers carried all his different swords for him... I suggest he went about with a squad of them and depending on the venue he would select the sword... thats how Slave Lords did it...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral,
No such thing as the typology you suggest...however, if you feel there is a case please prove it...

Type 2 is your typology.

If you study this picture you will see it a type 2 kattara.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

You may observe the Badge of Office designation on all Omani Swords..and Khanjars. It was a primary function in all cases..

Of course but the symbols of power come from weapons not dancing. {Even though a thin sharp sword will make a mess of a naked man or one with just a light layer of cotton covering their skin of course. {Hence triads often using melon knives to mutilate people.}

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Tipu Tip is shown with his heraldic dancing sword and the others are as I have described... Badge of Office in every case. These all had VIP status, even Tipu Tip ~ who enjoyed virtual Royal Status in his own right in much of Central Africa and especially around the Falls region which he dominated. He was half Swahili ~ half Omani ...see Kattara for comments on my description of him.

As I stated above he carry's both curved & straight fighting swords in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Did you know he was blind...? Perhaps you thought he could weild a sword? In his case the sword was very much his badge of Office. I imagine that his retainers carried all his different swords for him... I suggest he went about with a squad of them and depending on the venue he would select the sword... thats how Slave Lords did it...
.

Yes, perhaps there is a God after all... Karma at least , but he was 33 or 34 when he went blind, that's why he is famous for lamenting the loss of a good canoe as he watched it go over the falls. {While Exhibiting no concern for the slave women & children on board. }

I expect a blind man who lived a life like his could be still a dangerous chap... not much good for fencing but could still cause some mayhem.

In truth neither of us can see inside the scabbard of his straight kattara, It might be a thick fighting sword or it might be a thin Fighting sword? Perhaps that should be Omani sword type number 7?

It just seems unlikely its a dancing sword...

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Type 2 is your typology.

If you study this picture you will see it a type 2 kattara.



Of course but the symbols of power come from weapons not dancing. {Even though a thin sharp sword will make a mess of a naked man or one with just a light layer of cotton covering their skin of course. {Hence triads often using melon knives to mutilate people.}



As I stated above he carry's both curved & straight fighting swords in my opinion.



Yes, perhaps there is a God after all... Karma at least , but he was 33 or 34 when he went blind, that's why he is famous for lamenting the loss of a good canoe as he watched it go over the falls. {While Exhibiting no concern for the slave women & children on board. }

I expect a blind man who lived a life like his could be still a dangerous chap... not much good for fencing but could still cause some mayhem.

In truth neither of us can see inside the scabbard of his straight kattara, It might be a thick fighting sword or it might be a thin Fighting sword? Perhaps that should be Omani sword type number 7?

It just seems unlikely its a dancing sword...

Spiral

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. It should be noted however that it is a badge of Office and a sign of respect to the ruling dynasty ...and used in the march past...so not purely dancing ...but what it is not is for fighting.

Actually there is another sword...I will advise on this in a day or so... another dancer... there are two sorts.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. .

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard?

Spiral