The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

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Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Thanks again for reinforcing the points I and others dispute.

Please show me a long handled stiff bladed Souk sword in complete antique dress in your hand...inlaid iron fittings or very high quality gold or silver fittings, ribbon wire threaded hilts etc, being the type I have handled.

To date I have not seen a single image presented worthy of any quality craftmanship even close to that os antiquity.

Gavin

Salaams~
But why would I seek out such a modern cross hilt...stiff bladed?? You mean an Ethiopian blade..... I'm not due in Muscat Souk for a few months...I have handled lots in Muttrah. see http://www.klm-mra.be/icomam/downloads/issue07.pdf where on page 89 you can see some swords several of which are rehilts ... The chap with the beard is a silver master in his own right... He did the cross hilts...like his father from 1970 onwards... I recall seeing and handling these and they were stiff blades. He told me he got them from Salalah and they got them from Sanaa from Ethiopia... One of them was marked Solingen. I believe I have pictured that somewhere...checking....oh yes on Kattara for Comments where I show some of the same swords as per the above reference from icoman...

What I do know is that the quite heavy iron and sometimes silver inlaid scabbard furniture comes from Omani Battle Sword Scabbards...but where a sword is to be used for its correct purpose (pageants) it has to be flexible or it will not buzz...That has always been the case. The stiff blades are not another type ... they are rehilts from Ethiopian blades. etc etc. and Omani people do not buy them... because they arent right...too stiff...Tourist Blades ... Like the one in your collection?

Here is Tipu Tip with a 19th C Omani dancing sword ...The Straight Omani Saif... with heavy duty Furniture to the scabbard...and in the classic style ...

To raise the price of the tourist variants ...(those blades brought from Ethiopia mainly from 1970 onwards), craftsmen copied this style exactly...adding the long hilt and scabbard complete from Omani style.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

See my other reply.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Like the one in your collection?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Nice Edit....but I am sorry to say, I do not collect such items, only deal in them. my collecting interests lay elsewhere.

When you can find a suitable candidate for my request, please let me know and I will pick up again where I have left off. Doing so might really help your theory and add some BUZZ back in to the debate.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business...

(Note the quotation marks.)

I "request" you resist the urge to continue debating in this fashion.

The alternative will result in consequences including, but not limited to, closing of this thread.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers...

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

Oh well ..I thought I would add that in support of them being useless for fighting...hugely bendy flat round spatulate tips (not on a stiiff blade they are pretty pathetic as fighting sword...The razor sharpness is a traditional detail copied off the Omani Battle Sword. I can see how outsiders look at this thing... and I have documented about half a dozen visitors who have spouted off about this amazing two handed chop em in half battle sword capable of hewing down or cutting off limbs ...Welstead and the others were hoodwinked. Now the weapon that did the business was of course The Omani Battle Sword...Not the Heraldic Dynasty Dancing Sword ... but that to one side since your point is not with the flexibility of the dancing blade but with the stiff bladed variant which came out of Ethiopia. There is a huge difference.

What compounds the arguement in addition to the mistaken remarks of the earlier visitors is the flexibility of many other swords... I believe the swordmaker from the Shotley Bridge sword company took one of his blades coiled up in his top hat to a sales meeting and unleashed it to astonished guests. I know another sword I think from the Sahara which wraps into a coil and is used like a lashing whip...I understand the concept...but that is not what this sword is about...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...

Another out of place and unfounded cheap shot.

The audacity of such a comment with its poor, inflaming and unfounded intent adds nothing but takes away a lot...but not from me.

[Gavin Nugent]

Would someone who is savy with creating a video for youtube please write me privately.
Anyone who is savy in test cutting too would be helpful.

With thanks

[kahnjar1]

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

[Ian]

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

Salaams ~
Thank you for the question... I prepared the answer yesterday... As you know Palace Guards or Askeris were armed substantially with Khanjar, Spear and the long gun... The Abu Futtilla. The dancing sword when carried (and terrs) were ceremonial . A large slice of a Guards daily program would have been to do with pageantry... and salutation...actually not altogether removed from ceremonial guard duty today. Pageantry includes the mock fight which is incorporated into the Funun...and which would form a good workout as each man took his turn...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.