1666: The MONTECUCCOLI Flintlock/Matchlock System - a MYTH Verified!

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,

This is absolutely one of my favourite muskets whitin your timeline display at your home. That combined system of flint and matchlock and the story that goes with it are just sublime.

One wonders where the at least 19 other muskets are? Would all the bodyguards (a loose translation on the Leibgarde) be equipped with the same ingenius gun?
Are there any records from the Von Stauffenberg armory about the way they came to posses this gun? And where the montecuccoli muskets in the possession of the bodyguards up until the death of Raimundo or only during his campaigns (like those in the Netherlands) .

The striking steel of the flintlock pan (frizzen) is original and without a repair (like so many other flintlock's which have been repaired with a new piece of hardened iron), so would these guns ever been (actively) used?

A lot of impossible questions, i am sorry

You would have made a frightening Leibgarde yourself if the pictures tell the tale (post 10)

The website on the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde is very interesting. They too like the Vikings seeing as they have a correct!!! Ulfberht sword at there homepage. Would they also accept foreign members, it looks like an interesting and serious group of scholars.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Michl,

This is absolutely one of my favourite muskets whitin your timeline display at your home. That combined system of flint and matchlock and the story that goes with it are just sublime.

One wonders where the at least 19 other muskets are? Would all the bodyguards (a loose translation on the Leibgarde) be equipped with the same ingenius gun?
Are there any records from the Von Stauffenberg armory about the way they came to posses this gun? And where the montecuccoli muskets in the possession of the bodyguards up until the death of Raimundo or only during his campaigns (like those in the Netherlands) .

The striking steel of the flintlock pan (frizzen) is original and without a repair (like so many other flintlock's which have been repaired with a new piece of hardened iron), so would these guns ever been (actively) used?

A lot of impossible questions, i am sorry

You would have made a frightening Leibgarde yourself if the pictures tell the tale (post 10)

The website on the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde is very interesting. They too like the Vikings seeing as they have a correct!!! Ulfberht sword at there homepage. Would they also accept foreign members, it looks like an interesting and serious group of scholars.

Hi Marcus,


It is my turn to thank you for asking these substantial questions!
And do believe an Old School teacher (who is emphasizing not to be mistaken for an old school teacher ... ):
One of my guide lines has always been that there are no silly or 'impossible' questions.
It is only the answers - or rather the person giving them - that may be silly, or 'impossible'.

Alright, OK? So let me have a try. Here we go.



For longer than twenty years before that piece showed up I had been pondering over and wondering about much the same facts:


- What would a real MONTECUCCOLI musket actually look like to make me identify it?

- What criteria would that piece have to fullfil - provided it would exist and come to my knowledge ?

- How many guardsmen did an average 17th century bodyguard/Leibgarde of a Count comprise?

- We have many records since at least the 15th century proving that usually all firearms were tested right on delivery. Actually, the frizzen of my MONTECUCCOLI musket shows a lot of characteristic old scratches caused by flint strokes, and so does the frizzen of the fine and elegantly wrought French/St. Etienne made flintlock musket I bought from part I of two Christie's sales of the complete Schloß Dyck armory of the Princes zu Salm-Reifferscheidt, 15 April 1992, lot 52.

Please see post #2 in Nando's thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+schloss+dyck

I will introduce that beauty in a thread of its own; it can be closely dated to ca. 1655, which makes it about a decade 'older' than the MONTECUCCOLI musket.
It is gun no. 6 from the right on the photos repeated in the attachments to this post, representing one of the latest specimens in the row of development of earliest arsenal firearms united in The Michael Trömner Collection.


Apart from these facts, I cannot really imagine a noble and skilled high-ranking man of war like Raimondo Montecuccoli to purchase some twenty high-tech guns custom made and handcrafted after his special orders by a Suhl workshop, and hand them over to his guardsmen without having them thoroughly exercise with those pieces and perfectly handle them.

After all, nobody gifted with some common (horse) sense would entrust his life to guardsmen using newly developed equipment without ensuring of its perfect function and working order of an equipment both newly designed by himself, and combining in one piece all the virtual impact of a firearm using two systems of ignition, with one of them never tested and/or prooved by any trained Austrian or Germany army before (the flintlock mechanism), and the additional long range effect of a pike (the bayonet).
Thus, the MONTECUCCOLI musket respresented a technologic novelty as a combination weapon that was awe-inspiring both psychologically and actually, keeping prospective attackers clear over a considerable distance when the guardsmen would group up like a hedge hog, with the muzzles of their muskets as well as the long bayonets pointing at aggressors.
The musket itself measures an overall length of 1.41 meters, and with the pike bayonet folded out and safely engaged in a catch soldered to the barrel right below the muzzle, its mere phsical coverage was extended to the impressive length of ca. 2.50 meters - not to forget the effective range of the load literally lurking in the barrel ...


- As I have stated above I think that those muskets were sold soon after Raimondo's death because keeping a small number of combination weapons as individually designed and ordered, and very difficult to get soldiers well trained on as was the case with those specimens may not have made much sense.
It is possible though that they were kept in the Montecuccoli family armory until the 1800's, or even until the early decades of the 20th century when, during the Great Depression, a number of noble houses in Austria and Germany had to consign the contents of their armories with American auction houses - just like the armory of Schloss Hohenwerfen near Salzburg which, as I mentioned before, were sold in New York in 1927:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ss+hohenwerfen


And then, of course, there were further widespread deaths of German noble collections after WW II ...



- Anyway, the present Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg definitely and quite ungraciously refused providing me with any information whatsoever concerning that musket shortly after he had learned that I had bought the piece.

I have often found myself confronted with that kind of behavior from people of the nobility.
In this special case I partly felt with the Count facing the fact that after centuries, he obviously had to finally sell off a considerable amount of pieces from the family armory.
On the other hand, the sad fact remains that his attitude accounts for a historically important piece of information on the only actually recorded specimem of its kind getting lost forever ...
I am afraid though that even reading my thread and noticing the photos of the private little 'armory' that 'his' musket is part of now, and together with many other fine and important pieces of top and highly repected provenance, would hardly change his mind.



Marcus, regarding your question on joining the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde:
disregarding the fact that it was founded in Germany, and therefore bears a historic and traditional German name we have members from different nations, including many museums. And we would of course be glad to welcome a young and aspiring collector from the Netherlands, and especially somebody striving for profound insight into a very dificult matter as devotedly and rapidly as you do!

Apart from that, I highly recommend getting that Sotheby's catalog of 10 July 2002 for your library!
Sotheby's, or Tom Del Mar, most probably still hold copies of that catalog.
It is basic for comprising many fine weapons from various good provenances, including some rare and early pieces like the important ca. 1520 matchlock arquebus lot 148, with a fine and recycled Late Gothic/'Maximilian' brass barrel of ca. 1490-1500.
I won it at the same sale and it is in The Michael Trömner Collection, together with the MONTECUCCOLI musket:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=arquebus
There are 125 attachments to this thread!



Best,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Thank you for your answers and your compliments It is a great feeling that the questions that came to mind where pretty much the same for the both of us.

The part about this gun beeing used makes a lot of sence too, coincidentally i received my book on "kriegkunst zu Fuß" so i can read up on this subject.

The Schloss Dyck flintlock is very nice as well, looking forward to it.

I just read the part about the Kube auction again and i looked at the auction which sold that amazing Haquebut. I was shocked to see it had a estimate of €3500,- and even more suprised that it DID NOT SELL at that auction !!!!

I will definitely apply for the membership, great knowledge is only one blink of an eye away when you take the efford to look at the right place.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Thank you for your answers and your compliments It is a great feeling that the questions that came to mind where pretty much the same for the both of us.

The part about this gun beeing used makes a lot of sence too, coincidentally i received my book on "kriegkunst zu Fuß" so i can read up on this subject.

The Schloss Dyck flintlock is very nice as well, looking forward to it.

I just read the part about the Kube auction again and i looked at the auction which sold that amazing Haquebut. I was shocked to see it had a estimate of €3500,- and even more suprised that it DID NOT SELL at that auction !!!!

I will definitely apply for the membership, great knowledge is only one blink of an eye away when you take the efford to look at the right place.

Hi Marcus,


I fully agreee.

The outcome of that Kube auction was even more sad for the singular
singular and highly important haquebut from the Fritz Kerbl collection:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7086&highlight=haquebut+painted+n uremberg


After failing to sell for even that ridiculous price of 3,500 € Kube put it up for sale in the following auction - with an estimate of