1666: The MONTECUCCOLI Flintlock/Matchlock System - a MYTH Verified!

Matchlock · 5th July 2014, 05:43 PM

Finally this is the start of adding the attachments I promised to post.
It took me a lot of time to do the scans though, and my computer is still boasting on its right to be out order voluntarily.
So please hang on because there is a tremendous lot of facts to follow in time.

The first scans are drawings scanned from
Anton Dolleczek: Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Hand-Feuerwaffen, Wien, 1896, pl. VII.

Still, 'the Dolleczek' maintains its reputation as sort of 'The Holy Bible' among museum curators and collectors alike.

Actually, those drawings done at a period of time when photographs had been common for more than half a century, are executed quite inexactly - to say the least. The author is covinced that Dolleczek never even saw, let alone handled one single genuine MONTECUCCOLI musket just like many other pieces he both illustrated and described.
On the other hand: how could Anton Dolleczek possibly have managed to achieve that aim ... with no actual sample of the true MONTECUCCOLI musket obviously existing?
All he could rely on - and take for granted - were the instances of some 200 combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' muskets preserved at the Graz arsenal/Landeszeughaus, the barrels all struck with SUHL proof marks - and traditionally classified as MONTECUCCOLI muskets, up to today ...

Dolleczek's research methods were confined to the facilities offered in the late 19th century.

All facts considered though:

At the beginning of the 21st century, after experiencing for decades the current scientific knowledge of leading experts in historic weaponry as shockingly low and sad as it is and being obviously maintained, especially by the people in charge of what museum ever, e.g. at both the HGM (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) Vienna and the Styrian arsenal (Steirisches Landeszeughaus) Graz - all that [font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][color=black][color=Blue]has proved to be quite a bit frustrating to the author.

He is looking back on almost 40 years of his life spent solely dedicated to the research of earliest European arsenal firearms and all kinds of related accouterments - both as close and comprehensive as he could, and taking any beating from so-called 'people being in charge' of what museums and/or institutions ever.
Anyways, for close comparison attached please find images of the actual MONTECUCCOLI gun held by The Michael Trömner Collection.

Enjoy,
and best,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

Matchlock · 5th July 2014, 07:39 PM

On it goes - Old School knowlegde against the bare facts ...

I think the differences between Dolleczek's drawings and the details of the actually existing MONTECUCCOLI musket in The Michael Trömner Collection are as striking as can be.

As stated above Dolleczek's drawings are generally done quite inexactly, and in some cases they seem to be nothing but wishful thinking and mere fantasy.
The author is convinced of the fact that Anton Dolleczek never even saw let alone handled any gun that would possibly come next to any existing, and recorded, Suhl manufactured combined flintlock and matchlock musket - be it of the Austrian type represented in both the Graz armory and the Vienna HGM or any other known - and most probably Prussia employed - 'military' arsenal type musket of that sort.
And even those are far from coming close to the MONTECUCCOLI piece.

Dolleczek's gun is missing all the special and early 1660's features that define a MONTECUCCOLI musket (cf. the author's definition above).
Moreover, he illustrated a gun showing stylistic features that actually turned up in Austria and Germany only by the late 1680's, and on private arms ordered in the latest French fashion of the 1670's by the Austrian and German nobility.
They have never been found on any Austrian or German 'military' type arsenal piece before the turn of the century, which is about 1700-30, and of course only relates to guns that have not undergone any later modifications carried out in arsenals.
One of these features is represented by the beveled and multi-staged baluster form of the ramrod pipes illustrated on Dolleczek's gun.
Therefore the existing sample he knew, provided that he actually did, could not be dateed any earlier than ca. 1730-50!

Actually, Dolleczek mentions such an unbelievable late Austrian combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' arsenal type of infantry musket - and the author found, and photo documented a really existing specimen in a Munich private collection in the late 1980's!
It was already by then that I realized that that had to be a very late piece that could not have been made before ca. 1740-50.

Alas, that collector, Fritz A. Kerbl, passed away a few years ago and his collection was literally torn asunder, with most pieces sold by the North Bavarian military oriented auction house Kube in 2013. All the Kerbl pieces were described extremely incompetently and consequently fetched ridiculously low prices.
Had he not been hospitalized at that time the author would have selected threeor four very fine and important pieces mostly preserved in literally 'untouched' original and patinated condition, and integrated them with The Michael Trömner Collection.
The haquebut with the profusely painted stock portrayed in the author's thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nted+nuremberg

would have been among them.

Anyway, in time I will scan and post many more good photos that I took of all recorded variants of both the Italian ca. 1660 prototype (only a handful of actually existing Italian manuufactured instances have ever come to my knowledge), and of the Suhl marked German style follower type of quite late combined flintlock and matchlock muskets - dating from the 1680's.

The author's thesis is that Raimondo Montecuccoli, being of Italian descent, well knew the Italian combined flintlock and matchlock archetypes, and ordered a "high-tech" German style variant from Suhl comprising some exclusively custom made special features for the men of his bodyguard.

I hardly have words to describe the tremendous amount of preparatory toil it takes to both competently and comprehensively document and present this musket that has been both a myth and, seemingly, a phantom to weaponry - up to when my piece turned up.

After all, nobody has ever tried to show what I set out to do decades ago.
It soon was to turn out that it would be a magnum opus, and of the most special kind ...

Best as ever,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

Matchlock · 6th July 2014, 08:06 PM

Here are two photos portraying Michael (slightly overweighed by then

- before I literally halved at hospital in 2013

) proudly presenting my MONTECUCCOLI musket in November 2007.
Note the long bayonet fully folded out for attack!

Next to me stands my friend Dieter Schatzmann, who, just like me, has been a long time member of the "German Arms&Armor Society" - actually it is called Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde and was founded in 1896:
http://www.waffen-kostuemkunde.de/

I am sorry to say that no English version of our home page seems to exist.

The following year I got invited to join the forum, and have been around quite a bit since.

Best,
Michael/Michl

Matchlock · 6th July 2014, 08:50 PM

Here is another photograph depicting the spacious exhibition rooms of the armory (German: Gräfliche Rüstkammer) of the Counts Schenk von Stauffenberg at Schloss Greifenstein, Markt Heiligenstadt, Upper Franconia/Bavaria.
Note the differences between the older photo (above) and the one attached at the bottom concerning the amount of pieces on exhibition.

For centuries, the von Stauffenberg armory held the fine combined flintlock and matchlock musket of MONTECUCCOLI type in discussion - obviously since, on the death of Raimondo Montecuccoli on 16 October 1680, his bodyguard was dissolved and their beautiful 17th century "high tech" muskets got deaccessioned.

Marcus den toom · 7th July 2014, 05:01 PM

Hi Michl,

This is absolutely one of my favourite muskets whitin your timeline display at your home. That combined system of flint and matchlock and the story that goes with it are just sublime.

One wonders where the at least 19 other muskets are? Would all the bodyguards (a loose translation on the Leibgarde) be equipped with the same ingenius gun?
Are there any records from the Von Stauffenberg armory about the way they came to posses this gun? And where the montecuccoli muskets in the possession of the bodyguards up until the death of Raimundo or only during his campaigns (like those in the Netherlands)

.

The striking steel of the flintlock pan (frizzen) is original and without a repair (like so many other flintlock's which have been repaired with a new piece of hardened iron), so would these guns ever been (actively) used?

A lot of impossible questions, i am sorry

You would have made a frightening Leibgarde yourself if the pictures tell the tale (post 10)

The website on the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde is very interesting. They too like the Vikings seeing as they have a correct!!! Ulfberht sword at there homepage. Would they also accept foreign members, it looks like an interesting and serious group of scholars.

Matchlock · 7th July 2014, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Michl,

This is absolutely one of my favourite muskets whitin your timeline display at your home. That combined system of flint and matchlock and the story that goes with it are just sublime.

One wonders where the at least 19 other muskets are? Would all the bodyguards (a loose translation on the Leibgarde) be equipped with the same ingenius gun?
Are there any records from the Von Stauffenberg armory about the way they came to posses this gun? And where the montecuccoli muskets in the possession of the bodyguards up until the death of Raimundo or only during his campaigns (like those in the Netherlands)

.

The striking steel of the flintlock pan (frizzen) is original and without a repair (like so many other flintlock's which have been repaired with a new piece of hardened iron), so would these guns ever been (actively) used?

A lot of impossible questions, i am sorry

You would have made a frightening Leibgarde yourself if the pictures tell the tale (post 10)

The website on the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde is very interesting. They too like the Vikings seeing as they have a correct!!! Ulfberht sword at there homepage. Would they also accept foreign members, it looks like an interesting and serious group of scholars.

Hi Marcus,

It is my turn to thank you for asking these substantial questions!

And do believe an Old School teacher (who is emphasizing not to be mistaken for an old school teacher ...

):
One of my guide lines has always been that there are no silly or 'impossible' questions.
It is only the answers - or rather the person giving them - that may be silly, or 'impossible'.

Alright, OK? So let me have a try. Here we go.

For longer than twenty years before that piece showed up I had been pondering over and wondering about much the same facts:

- What would a real MONTECUCCOLI musket actually look like to make me identify it?

- What criteria would that piece have to fullfil - provided it would exist and come to my knowledge ?

- How many guardsmen did an average 17th century bodyguard/Leibgarde of a Count comprise?

- We have many records since at least the 15th century proving that usually all firearms were tested right on delivery. Actually, the frizzen of my MONTECUCCOLI musket shows a lot of characteristic old scratches caused by flint strokes, and so does the frizzen of the fine and elegantly wrought French/St. Etienne made flintlock musket I bought from part I of two Christie's sales of the complete Schloß Dyck armory of the Princes zu Salm-Reifferscheidt, 15 April 1992, lot 52.

Please see post #2 in Nando's thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+schloss+dyck

I will introduce that beauty in a thread of its own; it can be closely dated to ca. 1655, which makes it about a decade 'older' than the MONTECUCCOLI musket.
It is gun no. 6 from the right on the photos repeated in the attachments to this post, representing one of the latest specimens in the row of development of earliest arsenal firearms united in The Michael Trömner Collection.

Apart from these facts, I cannot really imagine a noble and skilled high-ranking man of war like Raimondo Montecuccoli to purchase some twenty high-tech guns custom made and handcrafted after his special orders by a Suhl workshop, and hand them over to his guardsmen without having them thoroughly exercise with those pieces and perfectly handle them.

After all, nobody gifted with some common (horse) sense would entrust his life to guardsmen using newly developed equipment without ensuring of its perfect function and working order of an equipment both newly designed by himself, and combining in one piece all the virtual impact of a firearm using two systems of ignition, with one of them never tested and/or prooved by any trained Austrian or Germany army before (the flintlock mechanism), and the additional long range effect of a pike (the bayonet).
Thus, the MONTECUCCOLI musket respresented a technologic novelty as a combination weapon that was awe-inspiring both psychologically and actually, keeping prospective attackers clear over a considerable distance when the guardsmen would group up like a hedge hog, with the muzzles of their muskets as well as the long bayonets pointing at aggressors.
The musket itself measures an overall length of 1.41 meters, and with the pike bayonet folded out and safely engaged in a catch soldered to the barrel right below the muzzle, its mere phsical coverage was extended to the impressive length of ca. 2.50 meters - not to forget the effective range of the load literally lurking in the barrel ...

- As I have stated above I think that those muskets were sold soon after Raimondo's death because keeping a small number of combination weapons as individually designed and ordered, and very difficult to get soldiers well trained on as was the case with those specimens may not have made much sense.
It is possible though that they were kept in the Montecuccoli family armory until the 1800's, or even until the early decades of the 20th century when, during the Great Depression, a number of noble houses in Austria and Germany had to consign the contents of their armories with American auction houses - just like the armory of Schloss Hohenwerfen near Salzburg which, as I mentioned before, were sold in New York in 1927:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ss+hohenwerfen

And then, of course, there were further widespread deaths of German noble collections after WW II ...

- Anyway, the present Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg definitely and quite ungraciously refused providing me with any information whatsoever concerning that musket shortly after he had learned that I had bought the piece.

I have often found myself confronted with that kind of behavior from people of the nobility.
In this special case I partly felt with the Count facing the fact that after centuries, he obviously had to finally sell off a considerable amount of pieces from the family armory.
On the other hand, the sad fact remains that his attitude accounts for a historically important piece of information on the only actually recorded specimem of its kind getting lost forever ...
I am afraid though that even reading my thread and noticing the photos of the private little 'armory' that 'his' musket is part of now, and together with many other fine and important pieces of top and highly repected provenance, would hardly change his mind.

Marcus, regarding your question on joining the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde:
disregarding the fact that it was founded in Germany, and therefore bears a historic and traditional German name we have members from different nations, including many museums. And we would of course be glad to welcome a young and aspiring collector from the Netherlands, and especially somebody striving for profound insight into a very dificult matter as devotedly and rapidly as you do!

Apart from that, I highly recommend getting that Sotheby's catalog of 10 July 2002 for your library!
Sotheby's, or Tom Del Mar, most probably still hold copies of that catalog.
It is basic for comprising many fine weapons from various good provenances, including some rare and early pieces like the important ca. 1520 matchlock arquebus lot 148, with a fine and recycled Late Gothic/'Maximilian' brass barrel of ca. 1490-1500.
I won it at the same sale and it is in The Michael Trömner Collection, together with the MONTECUCCOLI musket:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=arquebus
There are 125 attachments to this thread!

Best,
Michl

Marcus den toom · 8th July 2014, 05:58 PM

Thank you for your answers and your compliments

It is a great feeling that the questions that came to mind where pretty much the same for the both of us.

The part about this gun beeing used makes a lot of sence too, coincidentally i received my book on "kriegkunst zu Fuß" so i can read up on this subject.

The Schloss Dyck flintlock is very nice as well, looking forward to it.

I just read the part about the Kube auction again and i looked at the auction which sold that amazing Haquebut. I was shocked to see it had a estimate of €3500,-

and even more suprised that it DID NOT SELL at that auction !!!!

I will definitely apply for the membership, great knowledge is only one blink of an eye away when you take the efford to look at the right place.

5th July 2014, 05:43 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Finally this is the start of adding the attachments I promised to post. It took me a lot of time to do the scans though, and my computer is still boasting on its right to be out order voluntarily. So please hang on because there is a tremendous lot of facts to follow in time. The first scans are drawings scanned from Anton Dolleczek: Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Hand-Feuerwaffen, Wien, 1896, pl. VII. Still, 'the Dolleczek' maintains its reputation as sort of 'The Holy Bible' among museum curators and collectors alike. Actually, those drawings done at a period of time when photographs had been common for more than half a century, are executed quite inexactly - to say the least. The author is covinced that Dolleczek never even saw, let alone handled one single genuine MONTECUCCOLI musket just like many other pieces he both illustrated and described. On the other hand: how could Anton Dolleczek possibly have managed to achieve that aim ... with no actual sample of the true MONTECUCCOLI musket obviously existing? All he could rely on - and take for granted - were the instances of some 200 combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' muskets preserved at the Graz arsenal/Landeszeughaus, the barrels all struck with SUHL proof marks - and traditionally classified as MONTECUCCOLI muskets, up to today ... Dolleczek's research methods were confined to the facilities offered in the late 19th century. All facts considered though: At the beginning of the 21st century, after experiencing for decades the current scientific knowledge of leading experts in historic weaponry as shockingly low and sad as it is and being obviously maintained, especially by the people in charge of what museum ever, e.g. at both *the HGM (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) Vienna* and *the Styrian arsenal (Steirisches Landeszeughaus)* Graz - all that [font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][color=black][color=Blue]has proved to be quite a bit frustrating to the author. He is looking back on almost 40 years of his life spent solely dedicated to the research of earliest European arsenal firearms and all kinds of related accouterments - both as close and comprehensive as he could, and taking any beating from so-called 'people being in charge' of what museums and/or institutions ever. Anyways, for close comparison attached please find images of the actual MONTECUCCOLI gun held by The Michael Trömner Collection*. Enjoy, and best, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 11th December 2015 at 04:41 PM.*

6th July 2014, 08:06 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here are two photos portraying Michael (slightly overweighed by then - before I literally halved at hospital in 2013 ) proudly presenting my MONTECUCCOLI musket in November 2007. Note the long bayonet fully folded out for attack! Next to me stands my friend Dieter Schatzmann, who, just like me, has been a long time member of the "German Arms&Armor Society" - actually it is called *Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde* and was founded in 1896: http://www.waffen-kostuemkunde.de/ I am sorry to say that no English version of our home page seems to exist. The following year I got invited to join the forum, and have been around quite a bit since. Best, Michael/Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 7th July 2014 at 08:18 AM.

6th July 2014, 08:50 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here is another photograph depicting the spacious exhibition rooms of the armory (German: Gräfliche Rüstkammer) of the Counts Schenk von Stauffenberg at Schloss Greifenstein, Markt Heiligenstadt, Upper Franconia/Bavaria. Note the differences between the older photo (above) and the one attached at the bottom concerning the amount of pieces on exhibition. For centuries, the von Stauffenberg armory held the fine combined flintlock and matchlock musket of MONTECUCCOLI type in discussion - obviously since, on the death of Raimondo Montecuccoli on 16 October 1680, his bodyguard was dissolved and their beautiful 17th century "high tech" muskets got deaccessioned. Attached Images

5th July 2014, 07:39 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	On it goes - Old School knowlegde against the bare facts ... I think the differences between Dolleczek's drawings and the details of the actually existing MONTECUCCOLI musket in The Michael Trömner Collection are as striking as can be. As stated above Dolleczek's drawings are generally done quite inexactly, and in some cases they seem to be nothing but wishful thinking and mere fantasy. The author is convinced of the fact that Anton Dolleczek never even saw let alone handled any gun that would possibly come next to any existing, and recorded, Suhl manufactured combined flintlock and matchlock musket - be it of the Austrian type represented in both the Graz armory and the Vienna HGM or any other known - and most probably Prussia employed - 'military' arsenal type musket of that sort. And even those are far from coming close to the MONTECUCCOLI piece. Dolleczek's gun is missing all the special and early 1660's features that define a MONTECUCCOLI musket (cf. the author's definition above). Moreover, he illustrated a gun showing stylistic features that actually turned up in Austria and Germany only by the late 1680's, and on private arms ordered in the latest French fashion of the 1670's by the Austrian and German nobility. They have never been found on any Austrian or German 'military' type arsenal piece before the turn of the century, which is about 1700-30, and of course only relates to guns that have not undergone any later modifications carried out in arsenals. One of these features is represented by the beveled and multi-staged baluster form of the ramrod pipes illustrated on Dolleczek's gun. Therefore the existing sample he knew, provided that he actually did, could not be dateed any earlier than ca. 1730-50! Actually, Dolleczek mentions such an unbelievable late Austrian combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' arsenal type of infantry musket - and the author found, and photo documented a really existing specimen in a Munich private collection in the late 1980's! It was already by then that I realized that that had to be a very late piece that could not have been made before ca. 1740-50. Alas, that collector, Fritz A. Kerbl, passed away a few years ago and his collection was literally torn asunder, with most pieces sold by the North Bavarian military oriented auction house Kube in 2013. All the Kerbl pieces were described extremely incompetently and consequently fetched ridiculously low prices. Had he not been hospitalized at that time the author would have selected threeor four very fine and important pieces mostly preserved in literally 'untouched' original and patinated condition, and integrated them with The Michael Trömner Collection. The haquebut with the profusely painted stock portrayed in the author's thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nted+nuremberg would have been among them. Anyway, in time I will scan and post many more good photos that I took of all recorded variants of both the Italian ca. 1660 prototype (only a handful of actually existing Italian manuufactured instances have ever come to my knowledge), and of the Suhl marked German style follower type of quite late combined flintlock and matchlock muskets - dating from the 1680's. The author's thesis is that Raimondo Montecuccoli, being of Italian descent, well knew the Italian combined flintlock and matchlock archetypes, and ordered a "high-tech" German style variant from Suhl comprising some exclusively custom made special features for the men of his bodyguard. I hardly have words to describe the tremendous amount of preparatory toil it takes to both competently and comprehensively document and present this musket that has been both a myth and, seemingly, a phantom to weaponry - up to when my piece turned up. After all, nobody has ever tried to show what I set out to do decades ago. It soon was to turn out that it would be a magnum opus, and of the most special kind ... Best as ever, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2014 at 07:11 PM.

7th July 2014, 05:01 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Hi Michl, This is absolutely one of my favourite muskets whitin your timeline display at your home. That combined system of flint and matchlock and the story that goes with it are just sublime. One wonders where the at least 19 other muskets are? Would all the bodyguards (a loose translation on the Leibgarde) be equipped with the same ingenius gun? Are there any records from the Von Stauffenberg armory about the way they came to posses this gun? And where the montecuccoli muskets in the possession of the bodyguards up until the death of Raimundo or only during his campaigns (like those in the Netherlands) . The striking steel of the flintlock pan (frizzen) is original and without a repair (like so many other flintlock's which have been repaired with a new piece of hardened iron), so would these guns ever been (actively) used? A lot of impossible questions, i am sorry You would have made a frightening Leibgarde yourself if the pictures tell the tale (post 10) The website on the Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde is very interesting. They too like the Vikings seeing as they have a correct!!! Ulfberht sword at there homepage. Would they also accept foreign members, it looks like an interesting and serious group of scholars.

8th July 2014, 05:58 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Thank you for your answers and your compliments It is a great feeling that the questions that came to mind where pretty much the same for the both of us. The part about this gun beeing used makes a lot of sence too, coincidentally i received my book on "kriegkunst zu Fuß" so i can read up on this subject. The Schloss Dyck flintlock is very nice as well, looking forward to it. I just read the part about the Kube auction again and i looked at the auction which sold that amazing Haquebut. I was shocked to see it had a estimate of €3500,- and even more suprised that it DID NOT SELL at that auction !!!! I will definitely apply for the membership, great knowledge is only one blink of an eye away when you take the efford to look at the right place.