1666: The MONTECUCCOLI Flintlock/Matchlock System - a MYTH Verified!

Matchlock · 3rd July 2014, 08:08 PM

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Matchlock · 3rd July 2014, 08:10 PM

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Matchlock · 3rd July 2014, 08:12 PM

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Matchlock · 5th July 2014, 05:43 PM

Finally this is the start of adding the attachments I promised to post.
It took me a lot of time to do the scans though, and my computer is still boasting on its right to be out order voluntarily.
So please hang on because there is a tremendous lot of facts to follow in time.

The first scans are drawings scanned from
Anton Dolleczek: Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Hand-Feuerwaffen, Wien, 1896, pl. VII.

Still, 'the Dolleczek' maintains its reputation as sort of 'The Holy Bible' among museum curators and collectors alike.

Actually, those drawings done at a period of time when photographs had been common for more than half a century, are executed quite inexactly - to say the least. The author is covinced that Dolleczek never even saw, let alone handled one single genuine MONTECUCCOLI musket just like many other pieces he both illustrated and described.
On the other hand: how could Anton Dolleczek possibly have managed to achieve that aim ... with no actual sample of the true MONTECUCCOLI musket obviously existing?
All he could rely on - and take for granted - were the instances of some 200 combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' muskets preserved at the Graz arsenal/Landeszeughaus, the barrels all struck with SUHL proof marks - and traditionally classified as MONTECUCCOLI muskets, up to today ...

Dolleczek's research methods were confined to the facilities offered in the late 19th century.

All facts considered though:

At the beginning of the 21st century, after experiencing for decades the current scientific knowledge of leading experts in historic weaponry as shockingly low and sad as it is and being obviously maintained, especially by the people in charge of what museum ever, e.g. at both the HGM (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) Vienna and the Styrian arsenal (Steirisches Landeszeughaus) Graz - all that [font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][color=black][color=Blue]has proved to be quite a bit frustrating to the author.

He is looking back on almost 40 years of his life spent solely dedicated to the research of earliest European arsenal firearms and all kinds of related accouterments - both as close and comprehensive as he could, and taking any beating from so-called 'people being in charge' of what museums and/or institutions ever.
Anyways, for close comparison attached please find images of the actual MONTECUCCOLI gun held by The Michael Trömner Collection.

Enjoy,
and best,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

Matchlock · 5th July 2014, 07:39 PM

On it goes - Old School knowlegde against the bare facts ...

I think the differences between Dolleczek's drawings and the details of the actually existing MONTECUCCOLI musket in The Michael Trömner Collection are as striking as can be.

As stated above Dolleczek's drawings are generally done quite inexactly, and in some cases they seem to be nothing but wishful thinking and mere fantasy.
The author is convinced of the fact that Anton Dolleczek never even saw let alone handled any gun that would possibly come next to any existing, and recorded, Suhl manufactured combined flintlock and matchlock musket - be it of the Austrian type represented in both the Graz armory and the Vienna HGM or any other known - and most probably Prussia employed - 'military' arsenal type musket of that sort.
And even those are far from coming close to the MONTECUCCOLI piece.

Dolleczek's gun is missing all the special and early 1660's features that define a MONTECUCCOLI musket (cf. the author's definition above).
Moreover, he illustrated a gun showing stylistic features that actually turned up in Austria and Germany only by the late 1680's, and on private arms ordered in the latest French fashion of the 1670's by the Austrian and German nobility.
They have never been found on any Austrian or German 'military' type arsenal piece before the turn of the century, which is about 1700-30, and of course only relates to guns that have not undergone any later modifications carried out in arsenals.
One of these features is represented by the beveled and multi-staged baluster form of the ramrod pipes illustrated on Dolleczek's gun.
Therefore the existing sample he knew, provided that he actually did, could not be dateed any earlier than ca. 1730-50!

Actually, Dolleczek mentions such an unbelievable late Austrian combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' arsenal type of infantry musket - and the author found, and photo documented a really existing specimen in a Munich private collection in the late 1980's!
It was already by then that I realized that that had to be a very late piece that could not have been made before ca. 1740-50.

Alas, that collector, Fritz A. Kerbl, passed away a few years ago and his collection was literally torn asunder, with most pieces sold by the North Bavarian military oriented auction house Kube in 2013. All the Kerbl pieces were described extremely incompetently and consequently fetched ridiculously low prices.
Had he not been hospitalized at that time the author would have selected threeor four very fine and important pieces mostly preserved in literally 'untouched' original and patinated condition, and integrated them with The Michael Trömner Collection.
The haquebut with the profusely painted stock portrayed in the author's thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nted+nuremberg

would have been among them.

Anyway, in time I will scan and post many more good photos that I took of all recorded variants of both the Italian ca. 1660 prototype (only a handful of actually existing Italian manuufactured instances have ever come to my knowledge), and of the Suhl marked German style follower type of quite late combined flintlock and matchlock muskets - dating from the 1680's.

The author's thesis is that Raimondo Montecuccoli, being of Italian descent, well knew the Italian combined flintlock and matchlock archetypes, and ordered a "high-tech" German style variant from Suhl comprising some exclusively custom made special features for the men of his bodyguard.

I hardly have words to describe the tremendous amount of preparatory toil it takes to both competently and comprehensively document and present this musket that has been both a myth and, seemingly, a phantom to weaponry - up to when my piece turned up.

After all, nobody has ever tried to show what I set out to do decades ago.
It soon was to turn out that it would be a magnum opus, and of the most special kind ...

Best as ever,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

Matchlock · 6th July 2014, 08:06 PM

Here are two photos portraying Michael (slightly overweighed by then

- before I literally halved at hospital in 2013

) proudly presenting my MONTECUCCOLI musket in November 2007.
Note the long bayonet fully folded out for attack!

Next to me stands my friend Dieter Schatzmann, who, just like me, has been a long time member of the "German Arms&Armor Society" - actually it is called Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde and was founded in 1896:
http://www.waffen-kostuemkunde.de/

I am sorry to say that no English version of our home page seems to exist.

The following year I got invited to join the forum, and have been around quite a bit since.

Best,
Michael/Michl

Matchlock · 6th July 2014, 08:50 PM

Here is another photograph depicting the spacious exhibition rooms of the armory (German: Gräfliche Rüstkammer) of the Counts Schenk von Stauffenberg at Schloss Greifenstein, Markt Heiligenstadt, Upper Franconia/Bavaria.
Note the differences between the older photo (above) and the one attached at the bottom concerning the amount of pieces on exhibition.

For centuries, the von Stauffenberg armory held the fine combined flintlock and matchlock musket of MONTECUCCOLI type in discussion - obviously since, on the death of Raimondo Montecuccoli on 16 October 1680, his bodyguard was dissolved and their beautiful 17th century "high tech" muskets got deaccessioned.

5th July 2014, 05:43 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Finally this is the start of adding the attachments I promised to post. It took me a lot of time to do the scans though, and my computer is still boasting on its right to be out order voluntarily. So please hang on because there is a tremendous lot of facts to follow in time. The first scans are drawings scanned from Anton Dolleczek: Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Hand-Feuerwaffen, Wien, 1896, pl. VII. Still, 'the Dolleczek' maintains its reputation as sort of 'The Holy Bible' among museum curators and collectors alike. Actually, those drawings done at a period of time when photographs had been common for more than half a century, are executed quite inexactly - to say the least. The author is covinced that Dolleczek never even saw, let alone handled one single genuine MONTECUCCOLI musket just like many other pieces he both illustrated and described. On the other hand: how could Anton Dolleczek possibly have managed to achieve that aim ... with no actual sample of the true MONTECUCCOLI musket obviously existing? All he could rely on - and take for granted - were the instances of some 200 combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' muskets preserved at the Graz arsenal/Landeszeughaus, the barrels all struck with SUHL proof marks - and traditionally classified as MONTECUCCOLI muskets, up to today ... Dolleczek's research methods were confined to the facilities offered in the late 19th century. All facts considered though: At the beginning of the 21st century, after experiencing for decades the current scientific knowledge of leading experts in historic weaponry as shockingly low and sad as it is and being obviously maintained, especially by the people in charge of what museum ever, e.g. at both *the HGM (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) Vienna* and *the Styrian arsenal (Steirisches Landeszeughaus)* Graz - all that [font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][font=Georgia][size=3][color=Blue][color=Purple][color=Blue][color=Black][color=Blue][color=black][color=Blue]has proved to be quite a bit frustrating to the author. He is looking back on almost 40 years of his life spent solely dedicated to the research of earliest European arsenal firearms and all kinds of related accouterments - both as close and comprehensive as he could, and taking any beating from so-called 'people being in charge' of what museums and/or institutions ever. Anyways, for close comparison attached please find images of the actual MONTECUCCOLI gun held by The Michael Trömner Collection*. Enjoy, and best, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 11th December 2015 at 04:41 PM.*

5th July 2014, 07:39 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	On it goes - Old School knowlegde against the bare facts ... I think the differences between Dolleczek's drawings and the details of the actually existing MONTECUCCOLI musket in The Michael Trömner Collection are as striking as can be. As stated above Dolleczek's drawings are generally done quite inexactly, and in some cases they seem to be nothing but wishful thinking and mere fantasy. The author is convinced of the fact that Anton Dolleczek never even saw let alone handled any gun that would possibly come next to any existing, and recorded, Suhl manufactured combined flintlock and matchlock musket - be it of the Austrian type represented in both the Graz armory and the Vienna HGM or any other known - and most probably Prussia employed - 'military' arsenal type musket of that sort. And even those are far from coming close to the MONTECUCCOLI piece. Dolleczek's gun is missing all the special and early 1660's features that define a MONTECUCCOLI musket (cf. the author's definition above). Moreover, he illustrated a gun showing stylistic features that actually turned up in Austria and Germany only by the late 1680's, and on private arms ordered in the latest French fashion of the 1670's by the Austrian and German nobility. They have never been found on any Austrian or German 'military' type arsenal piece before the turn of the century, which is about 1700-30, and of course only relates to guns that have not undergone any later modifications carried out in arsenals. One of these features is represented by the beveled and multi-staged baluster form of the ramrod pipes illustrated on Dolleczek's gun. Therefore the existing sample he knew, provided that he actually did, could not be dateed any earlier than ca. 1730-50! Actually, Dolleczek mentions such an unbelievable late Austrian combined flintlock and matchlock 'military' arsenal type of infantry musket - and the author found, and photo documented a really existing specimen in a Munich private collection in the late 1980's! It was already by then that I realized that that had to be a very late piece that could not have been made before ca. 1740-50. Alas, that collector, Fritz A. Kerbl, passed away a few years ago and his collection was literally torn asunder, with most pieces sold by the North Bavarian military oriented auction house Kube in 2013. All the Kerbl pieces were described extremely incompetently and consequently fetched ridiculously low prices. Had he not been hospitalized at that time the author would have selected threeor four very fine and important pieces mostly preserved in literally 'untouched' original and patinated condition, and integrated them with The Michael Trömner Collection. The haquebut with the profusely painted stock portrayed in the author's thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nted+nuremberg would have been among them. Anyway, in time I will scan and post many more good photos that I took of all recorded variants of both the Italian ca. 1660 prototype (only a handful of actually existing Italian manuufactured instances have ever come to my knowledge), and of the Suhl marked German style follower type of quite late combined flintlock and matchlock muskets - dating from the 1680's. The author's thesis is that Raimondo Montecuccoli, being of Italian descent, well knew the Italian combined flintlock and matchlock archetypes, and ordered a "high-tech" German style variant from Suhl comprising some exclusively custom made special features for the men of his bodyguard. I hardly have words to describe the tremendous amount of preparatory toil it takes to both competently and comprehensively document and present this musket that has been both a myth and, seemingly, a phantom to weaponry - up to when my piece turned up. After all, nobody has ever tried to show what I set out to do decades ago. It soon was to turn out that it would be a magnum opus, and of the most special kind ... Best as ever, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2014 at 07:11 PM.

6th July 2014, 08:06 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here are two photos portraying Michael (slightly overweighed by then - before I literally halved at hospital in 2013 ) proudly presenting my MONTECUCCOLI musket in November 2007. Note the long bayonet fully folded out for attack! Next to me stands my friend Dieter Schatzmann, who, just like me, has been a long time member of the "German Arms&Armor Society" - actually it is called *Gesellschaft für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde* and was founded in 1896: http://www.waffen-kostuemkunde.de/ I am sorry to say that no English version of our home page seems to exist. The following year I got invited to join the forum, and have been around quite a bit since. Best, Michael/Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 7th July 2014 at 08:18 AM.

6th July 2014, 08:50 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here is another photograph depicting the spacious exhibition rooms of the armory (German: Gräfliche Rüstkammer) of the Counts Schenk von Stauffenberg at Schloss Greifenstein, Markt Heiligenstadt, Upper Franconia/Bavaria. Note the differences between the older photo (above) and the one attached at the bottom concerning the amount of pieces on exhibition. For centuries, the von Stauffenberg armory held the fine combined flintlock and matchlock musket of MONTECUCCOLI type in discussion - obviously since, on the death of Raimondo Montecuccoli on 16 October 1680, his bodyguard was dissolved and their beautiful 17th century "high tech" muskets got deaccessioned. Attached Images

3rd July 2014, 08:08 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	..

3rd July 2014, 08:10 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	...

3rd July 2014, 08:12 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	,